Is Irelands neutrality stance in WW2 unfairly criticized? (see Mod note 217)

Nobody is denying that it was a stormy meeting. As the article (did you even read that one fully?) says the details are 'alleged' by Brennan in a memoir. It is not an official record of the meeting but an anecdote.

and the alleged flying knives and forks

The meeting did secure economic assistance, improved communications and an assurance Britain would not invade Ireland and did not lead to any sanctions, embargos or a breakdown in normal diplomatic relations despite the sensationalism around it.

You keep cutting the meeting up and moving around the order of the quotes around to try suit your point!

During the interview, General Watson4 had come in a couple of times to signify that the interview was at an end, but, as Mr. Aiken had not said all he wanted to say, he kept on. At this stage, however, the President showed that the interview was at an end, and a couple of other Secretaries had come in as well as a half a dozen negro waiters who prepared to serve the President's lunch.

Mr. Aiken, standing, asked the President whether we could say that he (the President) sympathised with Ireland's stand against aggression. The President replied 'against German aggression'. Mr. Aiken said 'or British aggression'. The President said 'Nonsense, you don't fear an attack from England. England is not going to attack you. It's a preposterous suggestion.' Mr. Aiken said why did the British refuse to give us a specific undertaking on this point when they were asked to. The President said 'It is absurd nonsense, ridiculous nonsense. Why, Churchill would never do anything of that kind. I wouldn't mind saying it to him myself.' Mr. Aiken said 'Will you do this, Mr. President'. He said 'I certainly will. I'll ask Churchill myself.' Mr. Aiken then said 'Would you give an instruction, Mr. President, that we get a definite yes or no on the matter of supplies within a few days'. He said 'I will do that.' We then withdrew, the interview having lasted from 12.30 to 1.45.

Again you gild the lily with BOGUS details and unsubstantiated anecdotes.

FDR was leaving on a sea fishing trip. This was a fact only discovered by Aiken the day before. They had come to the US hoping for a quick meeting which wasn't possible.

There is NOTHING in the official record to support a theory that it was an official snub. FDR went on fishing trips all the time. There is also nothing in the official record about 'not trusting'

If Roosevelt thought Britain would not invade why did he secure assurances from Britain?

For the record:

While Aiken did not recieve weapons he did receive the following:

Grain and wheat supplies.
Coal shipments and access to coal supplies.
Ships. 2 merchant ships.

FDR's personal assurance that Britain would not invade Ireland. Which was a very real fear in Ireland at that time.

FDR's promise to get similar assurances from Britain.

Aiken did get weapons.

As a result of his US trip, 20,000 M1917 rifles and several 75mm artillery guns were sent from the US to Ireland.

Probably other weapons as well, though I can't remember them off the top of my head.

I also don't know what was on his shopping list.

So no proof or quote that Roosevelt didn't trust him!

Again you left out the actual end of the meeting which contradicts your argument.

During the interview, General Watson4 had come in a couple of times to signify that the interview was at an end, but, as Mr. Aiken had not said all he wanted to say, he kept on. At this stage, however, the President showed that the interview was at an end, and a couple of other Secretaries had come in as well as a half a dozen negro waiters who prepared to serve the President's lunch.

Mr. Aiken, standing, asked the President whether we could say that he (the President) sympathised with Ireland's stand against aggression. The President replied 'against German aggression'. Mr. Aiken said 'or British aggression'. The President said 'Nonsense, you don't fear an attack from England. England is not going to attack you. It's a preposterous suggestion.' Mr. Aiken said why did the British refuse to give us a specific undertaking on this point when they were asked to. The President said 'It is absurd nonsense, ridiculous nonsense. Why, Churchill would never do anything of that kind. I wouldn't mind saying it to him myself.' Mr. Aiken said 'Will you do this, Mr. President'. He said 'I certainly will. I'll ask Churchill myself.' Mr. Aiken then said 'Would you give an instruction, Mr. President, that we get a definite yes or no on the matter of supplies within a few days'. He said 'I will do that.' We then withdrew, the interview having lasted from 12.30 to 1.45.

Well according to you they offered it to us but you can't prove that can you?

delete

You keep posting the same thing over and over whilst ignoring me pointing out where you are wrong!

At no point does Roosevelt say he doesn't trust Aiken. Find it and underline it!

The President at this stage asked how we would get the stuff over and Mr. Aiken replied that we were prepared to purchase ships if we were satisfied that the flag would be transferred. He said that the State Department would not give a decision on the flag question, and that this had been held up indefinitely. The President said 'that means you have not convinced the State Department that this material would not be used to attack England'. Mr. Aiken said that they had no intention of doing anything of the kind, and recalled again Mr. de Valera's explicit undertaking that Ireland will not be used as a base to attack England and that we had announced it was no part of our policy to settle partition by force.

I was replying to this post

And this was your post earlier

President Franklin D. Roosevelt publicly clarified that Ireland could only obtain munitions and weapons if they abandoned their neutrality and joined the Allies.

So you claimed that Roosevelt offered us arms to join the Allies but also that no one was offered arms to join the Allies!

So which one are you wrong on? I'll give you a hint there is no public or private statements of Roosevelt saying this.

There are no links or back up forthcoming for multiple claims. It is just ignore and pivot to something else

Roosevelt addressed the American nation on Sept 14th, 1939: "I hope the United States will keep out of this war. I believe that it will and I give you assurance and reassurance that every effort of your Government will be directed toward that end."

I am not wrong on either. In the link I gave in post no. 690, at 4.30 p.m.

"Roosevelt promised Ireland much-needed supplies only if Britain consented." End of quote. Britain wanted Ireland to join the Allies, in fact Britain promised Ireland a U.I. if we did so. If we joined the Allies, Britain and the US would see we had arms : it would not expect us to fight with bare fists.

If we did not step up to the plate and join the allies, why would the US or UK give us any arms, which were in short supply anyway? Roosevelt questioned would we use them against the British. So he would not give us any until we showed some commitment towards what we would use them for.

It is obvious he did not trust us - otherwise he would have sold us arms. Arms were what Aiken went to America for. He failed.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt publicly clarified that Ireland could only obtain munitions and weapons if they abandoned their neutrality and joined the Allies.

That is what you said.

"Roosevelt promised Ireland much-needed supplies only if Britain consented." End of quote.

There is no mention of abandoning neutrality or joining the Allies.

Britain wanted Ireland to join the Allies, in fact Britain promised Ireland a U.I. if we did so. If we joined the Allies, Britain and the US would see we had arms : it would not expect us to fight with bare fists.

If we did not step up to the plate and join the allies, why would the US or UK give us any arms, which were in short supply anyway? Roosevelt questioned would we use them against the British. So he would not give us any until we showed some commitment towards what we would use them for.

This is all your opinion and not based on facts.

Mr. Aiken pointed out that Mr. de Valera had stated again and again, as far back as 1935 and since, that we would defend our territory against any belligerent who attacked us, and, furthermore, that he had given an explicit undertaking in public that he would not allow Ireland to be used as a base to attack England.2 The President said that a great many people in America did not realise this. He said that, if we could convince the British that such were the case, and if then the British came to him and said they were satisfied on the point, the supplies would be forthcoming. Mr. Aiken pointed out that the British policy in regard to Ireland had been very stupid and that the President should try and save them from their own folly. He should use his own judgment and initiative in approaching this subject. Mr. Aiken pointed out that the Germans might think it unwise to attack England directly, and in that event they might occupy Ireland so as to straddle the communications between Britain and America and cut off the last remaining route

Roosevelt needed Ireland to be armed to prevent the Germans using us as a staging area to backdoor into Britain, not to join the Allies.

The President then said that, even if we got the stuff, it would take us a whole year to train personnel and a sufficient army, whereupon Mr. Aiken said that he had the trained personnel already and, if he had the material, he could put over 200,000 men in the field over night, but it was apparent that the President was not convinced on this point. He (the President) said that the Irish terrain was flat and an easy object for an attack by mechanised implements of war. Mr. Aiken corrected him to say that the Irish terrain was broken by rivers, mountains and bogs, and that our hedges and ditches and stone walls would make tank progress difficult, particularly if there were ground forces to meet the attack. The President said 'Well, you can hunt over the country'. Mr. Aiken said it took very good horses. 

They discussed using any materials for defending Ireland NOT joining the Allies.

Of course the Americans during the war wanted Ireland to join the Allies, to stand up to Nazism. There were many Jews in America, they may not have known the full extent of the extermination camps then but they knew from refugees coming from Germany before the way etc what Germany was like. And America helped the UK before it joining the war through Eagle squadrons etc

The U.S. saw Ireland's location in the Atlantic as a critical asset for anti-submarine warfare, naval bases, and troop deployment. Even in 1941, before America itself joined the war, Roosevelt was urging Aiken for Ireland to engage in patrolling the coasts off Ireland, 50 miles out, to help fight and deter German submarines.

In the link I gave you yesterday, it said, and I quote

"The President (Roosevelt) said we should try and find a formula by which we could assist in patrolling our coast – a formula which would obvi- ate any German attack. He spoke of his bases on the British possessions in this hemisphere, and on the fact that he had extended the territorial waters of the U.S. to a belt 300 miles off the coast. He was considering increasing that belt. He had been told before taking certain of these measures that the Germans would use it as a pretext, but he judged differently. Mr. Aiken pointed out the difference of Ireland's position which would be right under the guns. The President repeated that a formula might be found. For instance, he said, in the patrolling of the area over here they were watching out for German submarine activities or surface craft. Why could you not institute an air patrol service extending, say, 50 miles off the Irish coast to spot these engines of destruction which are preying on your ships. Mr. Aiken said that any endeavour to get us committed would be turned down by the Irish Government"

So the US. even in 1941 wanted us to assist in the fight against Quote " German submarine activities or surface craft."

When America joined the war in Europe you can imagine the Americans wanted co-operation even more so.