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General British politics discussion thread

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No it can't. I'm not even sure what she is supposed to have "sold off"?

    Thatcher did a lot of questionable to bad things, but it is ironic that the thing she is most vilified for is the most obviously correct thing she did re the miners. We see the same today with the steel industry. Nationalise it if you want, just acknowledge that you are doing it for national security reasons and it will be a massive financial drain. Coal never had any chance in the same way for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,728 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    What the UK actually needs is a type of Thatcher figure,

    The lady who decimated the working class sector and who privatised national assets which have paid out billions in dividends to shareholders since that was done coupled with reduced quality of services.

    Maybe if she hadn't done that, there wouldn't be so many people requiring some sort of benefit.

    This Capitalism at all costs policy ideal is a busted flush. In the US, about 30% of Amazon and Walmart Workers are on Government assistance programs. Amazon and Walmart are two of the wealthiest companies in the country.

    The UK needs another Margaret Thatcher like it needs another Covid Pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,833 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Countil housing and British Rail are just two examples.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Council Housing sure, the right to buy scheme was terrible. Mind you, selling housing to poor people at a discount is hardly the kind of thing she is usually accused of

    British Rail was awful, and while people rightly complain about the status of trains in the UK today, I believe on a number of factors such as response times to complaints etc that it is improved from BR times. The physical railways themselves are still in State control (as are a number of licenses now) and it is the worst performing part of the system…

    As per usual in the UK, both the state run elements and privately run elements are just implemented in the worst way possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,149 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Not sure what she sold off? Everything that wasn't nailed down. BAe, Cable and Wireless, the car companies, BT, British Gas, BP, Rolls Royce Aero, National Grid, power generation, the water sector.

    Many of these had underpriced IPOs or other very poor sales deals for the UK Government at that.

    She asset stripped the nation for the benefit of the business sector, and laid the basis for the state the UK is in today.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Because they had a referendum and said they didn't want to become independent and in the election just gone 58% of the people who voted voted for unionist parties so nothing has changed despite Swinney bleating on like a stuck record which is beyond tedious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Randycove




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I have no idea. I am taking the statement at face value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,031 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Ironically Thatcher herself regarded British Rail as a privatisation too far. It was privatised under Major in 1994.

    The tracks were also privatised as Railtrack but that went bust following the Potters Bar crash.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Randycove


    from what I can tell, it is being claimed he is Jewish because his name is Moses.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,728 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭Randycove


    as Podge mentioned earlier, whenever I have experienced delays on British rail, it is because of a points failure, an issue with the track and last week there was a major issue with the radio system. All of this is down to state owned railtrack, so I’m not sure what nationalisation will actually do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,149 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    When Railtrack was privatised, maintenance fell to such a level that fatal derailments or crashes (on a much less overloaded system) were frequent. 38 dead between Ladbroke Grove and Potters Bar for instance, which were undeniably caused by poor maintenance.

    Underinvestment is still a huge issue, but the private sector weren't investing either. Signalling and electrification upgrades have not recovered from the Railtrack era.

    And with a state that's extremely cash-starved, there isn't much there to invest to begin with.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,695 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon threatening to cancel plans to a London HQ with 12,000 staff if Labour moves further to the Left.

    ……The boss of America's largest bank has threatened to abandon its plan to build a new skyscraper in London if the Government moves further to the Left.

    Jamie Dimon said JP Morgan would review its plans to build a new skyscraper in Canary Wharf if its tax bill became 'too much'.

    The warning came as the Prime Minister's future hung in the balance, with growing calls for his resignation. That could prompt a shift further to the Left with higher taxes imposed on banks.

    JP Morgan announced its plans to build a new tower last November - expected to cost £3billion to build - and be home to 12,000 employees. The bank claims it would inject £9.9billion into the local economy.

    Dimon told Bloomberg TV that he would review plans for the new London HQ 'if they become hostile to banks again'.

    'I've always objected to the fact, we didn't damage the UK in any way, we paid probably $10billion in extra taxes by now. I don't think that's right or fair. If that happens too much we will reconsider.'……..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,681 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Privatisation of BR was the direct cause of multiple crashes and fatalities on the railway. Railtrack got rid of a lot of the BR era engineers and decided that they know best and out-sourced the maintenance and renewals. BR in the late 1980s were getting the better and actually performed very well late 1980s and early 1989s just when the Tories decided to very quickly sell everything off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,681 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Railtrack were liquidated 24 years ago. The signalling system fails safe which means you may be disrupted because of an issue but you won't be killed or injured.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,681 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    My son works for JP Morgan and he thinks Dimon is a right wing whinger… I tend to agree with him (my son that is)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Half of these were really good things to privatise though. The State obviously shouldn't own car companies, bp was not a state company under Thatcher she just divested shares. I think the government should have retained a larger shareholding in a bunch of them and one can blame her for that, but not for the privatisation per se.

    The only questionable ones are the Grid and water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭midlander12




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ok, but 94 people died on the railways in the 10 years before privatisation and 78 died in the 10 years after according to here

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

    So I'm not convinced this argument is watertight.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,149 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Retaining a strong shareholding in Renault works pretty well for France… Rolls Royce Aero is about the only obvious sell to me. UK aircraft industry has not done well under private ownership, and the shareholding in Airbus would have been incredibly performative to retain.

    Telecoms have faltered badly too - very high prices, low broadband speeds, poor broadband coverage and poor mobile signal suggest that flogging off both your telecoms companies to the highest bidder may not have worked well.

    Forgot to add BAA to the craven privatisations list. UK airport sector is a disgrace, with obscene charges, terrible facilities or more often both being the norm.

    Still plenty of local government owned airports admittedly, but if they're busy they are milked to make up for council income losses elsewhere - over a quarter of a billion out of MAG (Manchester, Stansted, Bournemoth) in the last two years alone, 70% to Manchester-area council shareholders; Luton was averaging over 25m out a year pre-pandemic. Manchester is an utter disgrace of an airport you would be embarrassed to have in a tinpot nation.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Retaining a strong shareholding in Renault works pretty well for France

    Ok but the British state own a larger shareholding in bp than France does in Renault for example. We need to have a common understanding of what we are talking about here. Skoda have become a significantly better and larger brand since they privatised. There is no clear answer to which is better.

    Still plenty of local government owned airports admittedly, but if they're busy they are milked to make up for council income losses elsewhere

    But this is the issue with state-owned enterprises in a nutshell. They are always a victim of politics.

    Again, the UK is bad at both privatisation and state run bodies. It is bad governance that is the issue, whether it is private or public isn't really the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,149 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I am not aware of the British state holding any % of BP?

    Thatcher sold too much, too cheap. That cannot possibly be denied; and also makes it impossible for a "new Thatcher" - as another user was hoping for - to be able to do anything like Thatcher did. There's nothing left to sell to fund that type of politics.

    That the country is suffering from that asset stripping ever since is also easily shown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,958 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Potters Bar and Hatfield were direct results of privatisation because one crowd owned the tracks and another owned the trains and their twains didn't meet. Something like Potters Bar was practically inevitable in the wake of selling off British Rail.

    Also, as far as investment was concerned, the shareholders of the companies made out like bandits, while the services were whittled down and costs went up in order to increase annual profits.

    This always happens went essential public services are hocked off to private business concerns. The service and the subsequently the public that rely on it always suffers. Under a public service, it's the service that matters. Under a private business it's profit that matters. That is why essential public services should always remain in public hands, even if their are flaws and issues from time to time.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    And multiple accidents before privatisation were almost certainly due to poor investment and oversight by a public body who are constantly scrabbling for funds from the Exchequer.

    My argument will always be that the UK does privatisation very, very badly. The Luas is privatised and works just fine.

    Under a public service, it's the service that matters

    This is incredibly not true. They have very little incentive to care about service whatsoever. The reason profit motivated business works is because their profit is reliant on the service being good.

    There are multiple examples of both private and public services operating well in Europe and globally - from rail to healthcare to base infrastructure. The UK is an outlier at being crap at all of them no matter which route it takes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,958 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    According to this article the government were already cutting costs and regulations within the rail services prior to 1994.

    https://theconversation.com/the-uks-privatisation-drive-cost-lives-research-suggests-194570

    "The period we examined saw an unusually large number of fatal rail crashes. British Rail was privatised between 1994 and 1997 – but prior to that date, the government was already pressing to make industry conditions favourable to privatisation by cutting costs.

    The 1988 crash at Clapham Junction was one consequence of this approach. It was the result of a deficient safety culture where wiring and signal failures regularly went undetected by independent checks and inspections, and where maintenance staff and electricians worked week after week without a break.

    After an inquiry found British Rail responsible for the crash, the government still did not approve recommended measures to improve rail safety. Once services were privatised, safety failures contributed to later disasters at Hatfield (2000) and Potters Bar (2002). Ultimately, Railtrack was returned to public ownership in 2002."



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    According to this article the government were already cutting costs and regulations within the rail services prior to 1994.

    Yes, governments do this. It is one of a number of reasons public bodies are not a panacea as they are at the whim of political winds.

    (it is also one reason why the NHS worked very well under Blair despite people's irritating attempts to denigrate him these days. He funded it, and a great many other things, properly).

    Public bodies are much, much worse at capital investment over private bodies. It is annoying but true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,958 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Yes, governments do this.

    Yes, conservative and right wing governments usually do cut public services and are often eager to sell them off to private concerns.

    Never really works out that well for the punter though.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ok, but unless your argument is that conservative and right wing governments should never be in power, this is an inherent flaw in government owner and operated businesses.

    You know where this doesn't happen? Supermarkets.

    Neither approach is inherently better, but that is not the angle taken by most people.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,149 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'd like to draw your attention to how private equity is slowly killing Asda and Morrisons currently. So it very much does happen.



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