The Kerry Babies Case

Can I ask why you say they lied specifically vs false confession, as in the eyes of the public they are two different things. This is not mere semantics, or nit picking, many a false confession has been extracted by the gardai, and often not using violent means.

A case recently in the U.S. a man went to report his father missing, and it ended hours later with him confessing to his murder to the police, and in the meantime his father turned up fit as a fiddle a day later.

The reason I ask, is that in the case of J Hayes and family, I'm not clear as to whether they just were led down a gruesome garden path to say and gave a false confession, or whether there was some form of conspiracy bold-faced lying, or something in between. I get the feeling you think they conspired together, but I haven't seen you outright say it so I'm not sure.

Agree with this, there is no way to prosecute at this time, and I imagine their lawyer is telling them that they shouldn’t say anything regardless of whether they had a part to play or not, so nothing can be done unless new evidence turned up in some form.

I don't know why the Hayes family are being brought into it at all at this stage considering they have N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with the case whatsoever.

I don't know what possible reason there would be that the now identified parents of poor Baby John are being discussed less than the Hayes family here, or why they haven't been held in some way responsible for perverting the course of justice.

Have you ever read a story about this scandal that didn't mention them?

They and their solicitor ran a media campaign for 35 years but now they want to be left alone with the millions we gave them. And for what? Read the statements by the Minister and the Garda Commissioner. No violence was done to the Hayes family. Neither the Minister nor the Commissioner even attempted to explain why the family confessed to this heinous murder. But they agreed to wipe from the public record the official explanation which was based on months of public testimony by all those involved.

Will a judicial system which bent to bogus media pressure for the Hayes family now seek justice for that murdered baby? I think not, but I hope I'm proved wrong.

This case illustrates the fundamental difference between a lie and a false confession.

The Tribunal found that the Hayes family told numerous lies to the investigating Gardai regarding the circumstances around the birth of Joanne's baby. That much was quite obvious from testimony at the Tribunal and was not disputed by any serious observer.

But here is the part that seems to have confused you - the Tribunal found that

The confessions of Joanne Hayes, Kathleen Hayes, Ned Hayes and Mike Hayes, contain large elements of the truth of what happened to the Tralee Baby transposed to the Cahirciveen Baby, with additions as to stabbing and a journey to fit involvement with the Cahirciveen Baby.

So the Tribunal did not say the false confessions were "lies". On the contrary, the confessions contained large elements of truth but, in the chaos of the investigation and the pressure of circumstances that night, the Hayes family members came to believe (wrongly) that Joanne's baby was the Caherciveen baby and adapted their narrative to fit the known facts of that murder.

Being put forward by some! Is there any serious journalist or public representative who denies that the Hayes family told lies to the Gardai?

The Tribunal did indeed find that the family concocted a false narrative.

The Hayes family and Bridie Fuller agreed together that Joanne Hayes, if ever questioned as to what had become of her pregnancy, should say that she gave birth to a child outside in a field and that no other member of the Hayes family or Bridie Fuller knew of it.

That lie fell apart under Garda questioning and the individual family members then began to give differing accounts of the birth which added to the Gardai's (misplaced) conviction that Joanne Hayes was the mother of the Caherciveen baby.

It was an ill-fated attempt at a cover-up and, but for the Caherciveen murder, no one would ever know what happened Joanne's baby.

Well we still don’t know but I take your point.

No, you need to stop making things up. The Tribunal Report has not been "withdrawn in full".

The High Court (Ms Justice Leonie Reynolds, Albert's daughter) issued a Declaration at the suit of the Hayes family in 2020 which concluded with this baseless re-writing of history:

the Court doth declare that in so far as it found any wrongdoing by the Plaintiff the Report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into “The Kerry Babies case ’' dated 3 October 1985 is unfounded and incorrect and was in breach of the Plaintiffs constitutional rights including Article 40.3.1 of the Constitution of Ireland

This Declaration was granted without any evidence being presented because, disgracefully, the Minister, the Attorney General and the Garda Commissioner refused to offer any defence and presented an open cheque book to the plaintiffs (not, obviously, that it cost any of them a cent - guess who was on the hook?) .

If you're impressed with this judicial tripe, you could say that the High Court declared the Tribunal's findings of wrongdoing by the family were "unfounded and incorrect". But the High Court said nothing about the rest of the Tribunal report, including the finding that

There was no assault on, or physical abuse of, any member of the Hayesfamily or Bridie Fuller by any member of the Gardai.

Which leaves us with no explanation for the family's false confessions - the primary issue the Tribunal was established to investigate.

Interestingly, the DPP did have the gumption and self-respect to stand up to this High Court nonsense and forced the Hayes family to withdraw their allegations against that Office before the High Court. That gives some hope that the DPP might defy the media and launch a prosecution of the parents.

Thanks.

Did I need to say I reserve the right to defend myself? You and Packrat have had nothing to contribute except dismissal and abuse while shutting your ears to counter-argument (i.e. fairly typical of Boards).

And your post shows that, like the media, are not interested in justice for Baby John - "no one will be held accountable but there's a silver lining - we won't hear any more from the weirdo about the Tribunal Report".

His murderer may well be dead now but, you'll be disappointed to hear, that does not exculpate anyone who assisted or covered up this horrible crime. Unfortunately, we live in a society which throws millions at a family who lied repeatedly to the investigating Gardaí so I doubt the DPP will have the gumption to press charges against the parents but, if so, I will gladly come back here and admit that, for the first and only time, something I said about this scandal was proved wrong. Of course, the posters whose fabrications I have exposed here have turned to abuse, smears and dismissals rather than do the honourable thing.

We will hear from the DPP one way or another.

An objective history would record that the Kerry Babies Tribunal was a rigorous, thorough and impartial legal process based on evidence from 109 witnesses who were asked over 61,000 questions. In shameful contrast, the High Court Declaration dismissing the Tribunal's findings against the Hayes family was a bogus, politicised, evidence-free abuse of process.

The questioning of Joanne Hayes was highly intrusive but a "show trial"? You think the Gardai are the NKVD? That Judge Lynch was a Vyshinsky? Don't be daft!