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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Mangan could be worth a shout too, been impressed with his showings lately. Izzy and Prendergast should definitely see some solid game time. Bryn Ward and Tierney-Martin could be good bets too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Zeugnis


    Supporters can tend towards hyperbole when they're team is doing well, but in this case i think it's true that Prendergast has gone through a phase change in his performances.

    At the beginning of the season the crowd of pretenders for the 6 jersey looked quite congested: Aherne, Izzy, Baird, Prendergast. Cian has shown the first two a clean pair of heels and Baird has been crocked since a good showing in the Autumn series.

    Soroka has looked good and progressed, he'll be a contender after the next RWC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Probably going to be an Irish squad announced in the next few weeks for the Nations Series games. Tried to have a look at a current best 23 of uncapped players (in my opinion):

    Player

    Club

    15. Harry West

    Connacht

    14. Josh Kenny

    Leinster

    13. Dan Kelly

    Munster

    12. Jude Postlethwaite

    Ulster

    11. Zac Ward

    Ulster

    10. Jack Murphy

    Ulster

    9. Matthew Devine

    Connacht / Ulster

    1. Billy Bohan

    Connacht

    2. Diarmuid Barron

    Munster

    3. Scott Wilson

    Ulster

    4. Charlie Irvine

    Ulster

    5. Diarmuid Mangan

    Leinster

    6. James McNabney

    Ulster

    7. Bryn Ward

    Ulster

    8. Sean Jansen

    Connacht

    16. Dylan Tierney Martin

    Connacht

    17. Alex Usanov

    Leinster

    18. Sam Illo

    Connacht

    19. Harry Sheridan

    Ulster

    20. Brian Gleeson

    Munster

    21. Fintan Gunne

    Leinster

    22. Sean Naughton

    Connacht

    23. Cathal Forde

    Connacht

    We're relatively deep in some positions: both THPs here look like having full international potential, the back row options all look good (and Ward & Jansen could well be capped this summer IMO), and we've got some good young centres coming through.

    Other positions are weaker: the two hookers included here are unlikely to ever be capped, but it's a position Ireland are relatively deep in.

    Some guys were lucky to make the 23, and I'd say Brian Gleeson & Fintan Gunne are in more for their potential and what they showed as U20s rather than what they've delivered as senior players.

    Unlucky to miss out: Alex Soroka, David McCann.

    Post edited by FtD v2 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭Lancey Howard


    You are obviously a Scott Wilson fan 🙂. Sam Illo?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Similar, but slightly different, I also picked our best possible 23 of players aged 25 or younger right now, and it's a relatively promising selection too IMO:

    Player

    Team

    15. Jamie Osborne*

    Leinster

    14. Josh Kenny

    Leinster

    13. Dan Kelly

    Munster

    12. Jude Postlethwaite

    Ulster

    11. Shayne Bolton*

    Connacht

    10. Sam Prendergast*

    Leinster

    9. Nathan Doak*

    Ulster

    1. Paddy McCarthy*

    Leinster

    2. Tom Stewart*

    Ulster

    3. Scott Wilson

    Ulster

    4. Darragh Murray*

    Connacht

    5. Joe McCarthy*

    Leinster

    6. James McNabney

    Ulster

    7. Bryn Ward

    Ulster

    8. Brian Gleeson

    Munster

    16. Gus McCarthy*

    Leinster

    17. Jack Boyle*

    Leinster

    18. Sam Illo

    Connacht

    19. Edwin Edogbo*

    Munster

    20. Alex Kendellen*

    Munster

    21. Ben Murphy*

    Connacht

    22. Jack Murphy

    Ulster

    23. Cathal Forde

    Connacht

    *already capped at senior level

    A pretty strong selection I think, with notable depth at lock (three really good young players), and LHP where Billy Bohan doesn't make this side despite having huge potential. Centre another area with lots of quality young depth IMO, and some really promising players coming through in the back row.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Zeugnis


    You've named McNabney at 6 in both selections, a player I haven't paid much attention to but will keep an eye on now.

    My suspicion is that Billy Bohan is going to leapfrog Jack Boyle who is not predicted to return until early 2027 - that's a long time to be out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Is McNaby back fit?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, I think he looked exceptional last season, and probably was capped last summer if he didn't do his ACL in international camp. It's always an if with a player coming back from that type of injury to see if they can maintain their athleticism etc, but that seems less a concern nowadays.

    He won't be back till next season from what I know of him, but he brings elite size to the back row (6ft 5ins, c. 118kg), quickness, power, and handling. He played over 1,100 mins for Ulster last season as a 22-year-old. I'd be very high on his potential (and it's a position with lots of talented players - Alex Soroka, Dave McCann, Ruadhan Quinn, James Culhane, Sean Edogbo etc).

    I think you could be right on Bohan too - he is only going to get better and better IMO.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Cathal Forde needs to be in any uncapped XV at 12. I know I’ve been banging his drum before but I rate him highly and have no idea how he hasn’t been capped by now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, he's excellent, I just rate Jude Postlethwaite a bit higher. You could just as easily pick Postlethwaite at 13 (or Forde at 13) and put Kelly in the 23 shirt.

    There are a good few good young options coming through in the centres, including guys I haven't mentioned here like: Hugh Gavin, Hugh Cooney, Harry West (as a 13), Ben Carson, Charlie Tector and then of course Jamie Osborne is still only 24 as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭big-al


    Darcy had huge limitations, especially regarding his defence and lack of size.


    he was not better than Jamie Roberts 2009- onwards and certainly wasn’t better than Will Greenwood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,971 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Did Greenwood win Six Nations player of the year?

    I remember a while back that people disagreed with me when I said that D'Arcy never gets the recognition he deserves. He's close to, if not, the most underrated Irish player ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭TRC10


    In an uncapped XV I’d have Forde 12, Jude 13. Both have been doing the business consistently for a number of years now. Kelly is decent but he was in the English system for years and they were never really interested in him (1 cap v Canada during a Lions summer). Easy to forget Gavin actually got capped v Portugal last year and scored 2 tries. He probably hasn’t kicked on as we hoped he would since then.

    I think Tector is really underrated personally. With Reiko leaving, I think Osborne will be used at 13 more next season, which opens the door for Tector to get more game time at 12. Cooney still has a lot to prove. West has looked good, but very early days for him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    In 2009, D'Arcy was only back from an horrendous injury and Roberts was one of the best players in the world at that point, so no injustice there. He absolutely should have got a cap in 2005 - the test 12s on that tour were Jonny Wilkinson, Gavin Henson and Gareth Thomas - but there was some sort of personality clash with Woodward, to the point where Woodward (falsely, allegedly) said D'Arcy took himself out of contention.

    So he was hard done by but nothing scandalous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    TBF Gavin got a bad injury and missed a chunk of time. He has a lot of physical potential, will be hoping Lancaster can upskill him and boost his game IQ, but he's still a really young player.

    I quite like Dan Kelly. There isn't a lot of flash about him as a player, and he doesn't have Jude Poslethwaite's rare athletic gifts, but he's a very handy player, still pretty young, looks equally comfortable at 12 or 13.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Plus, Greenwood's only Lions test cap was during that 3rd test in '05. He went on 3 tours, but his pick in '97 (before he'd even been capped for England, and one of a number of unorthodox selections on that tour) was attributed as much to some of the selector's friendship with his Dad as anything he'd done in rugby at that point. He wasn't some neophyte either - he was 25 when he went on that tour.

    He got injured badly on that tour - but he was never breaking up the Gibbs-Guscott centre pairing in any event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,944 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Surprised to see there's no mention of Prendergast's omission from the 23 this weekend in the Leinster thread.

    He'll definitely play a part in Leinster's URC run-in (I see a scenario where he might even start every game in a run to the final if Leinster win the CC) but the likelihood now seems to be he'll miss out on the CC final 23.

    Whatever way it works out, it's a big Summer and off-season for him. It'll be interesting to see if he comes back into the reckoning for Ireland, in the Japan game, say, or if Farrell decides to start giving Harry Byrne some gametime. I think one of them has to start that game.

    With Frawley's move to Connacht, you'd imagine he'll get more gametime from 10 too and will be looking to advance his case.

    I'm not sure we can bring all of Crowley, Byrne, Frawley and Prendergast to the RWC with the squad limit in place (even with Frawley's versatility) so it'll be interesting to see what Farrell does during the Summer tour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It's not surprising for me he's not involved this weekend- they've largely rotated heavily, and most of the squad will play across these two match weeks (last week and this week).

    I don't expect him to be in the 23 for the final - he was there for the semi because Frawley was carrying a knock.

    I wouldn't have Sam Prendergast in the Irish squad this summer, but Farrell definitely prefers him to Harry Byrne historically. a lot of rugby still to be played, and how Leinster's season finishes and the role those two play in it will probably go a long way to determining it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I don't see how Farrell picks him going forward for this season. He's in poor form, and it would be an awful signal to the other 10s to continue backing him. I wouldn't be shocked if Murphy gets called up to the squad, he's been going well for Ulster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I actually had a look at trying to forecast Ireland's squad for the Nations Series. We're playing 3 games between July 4th and July 18th.

    When we played 5 games in NZ in 2022 we picked a 40-man squad, when we played 2 in SA in 2024 we picked a 35-man squad, so I'm forecasting we split the difference here and bring 37 players down on this one.

    A lot will depend on injuries - I'm really unsure around the status of guys like Rob Baloucoune, Jacob Stockdale and Tadhg Beirne, but my best guess at the squad is here below.

    I've gone for 20 forwards and 17 backs, as follows:

    • Hookers: Dan Sheehan, Ronan Kelleher, Tom Stewart
    • LHPs: Andrew Porter, Paddy McCarthy, Billy Bohan
    • THPs: Tom Clarkson, Tadhg Furlong, Finlay Bealham
    • Locks: James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Joe McCarthy, Darragh Murray, Edwin Edogbo
    • Back Row: Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier, Jack Conan, Nick Timoney, C Prendergast
    • Scrum Half: Jamison Gibson Park, Nathan Doak, Craig Casey
    • Out Half: Jack Crowley, Harry Byrne, Ciaran Frawley
    • Centre: Garry Ringrose, Stuart McCloskey, Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki, Jude Postlethwaite
    • Back Three: Hugo Keenan, Tommy O'Brien, Robert Baloucoune, James Lowe, Jamie Osborne, Zac Ward

    Development Players: Bryn Ward, Sam Illo

    Assumed injured: Jacob Stockdale, Jack Boyle, Mack Hansen, Ryan Baird

    Where there are calls to be made?

    • LHP - I'm assuming here Paddy McCarthy is back and able to play meaningful minutes down the stretch. I think if so he goes, with a view to getting Bohan on the bench against Japan. Bohan has more upside than bringing Loughman or Milne IMO.
    • THP - I wouldn't personally pick both Furlong & Bealham. One should be left at home to bring one of Sam Illo, Scott Wilson or Tom O'Toole IMO.
    • Locks - Seems unlikely we'll bring all of D Murray, Edogbo & Izuchukwu. I've assumed Izuchukwu to be on the outside of those three based on the 6Ns.
    • Out Half - if healthy then Crowley & Frawley are sure to travel, as I mentioned, I'd have Harry over Sam, but remains to be seen how Farrell sees this
    • Centre - given contract status and 6N selections I fully expect both Aki & Henshaw to be selected. I'd go for Jude Postlethwaite over Tom Farrell (who may well be injured anyway I think) as he is a lot younger with more potential upside.

    James Lowe's contract situation still needs to be resolved - so it could the guys I've selected here as wingers, or it could only be Tommy O'Brien (if Baloucoune & Stockdale are hurt, and Lowe leaves Leinster). If that's the case, Shayne Bolton probably comes in, Jimmy O'Brien probably comes in and hard to know who's next up after that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    All of the 10s in Irish rugby have had ups and downs this season, and all of them are relatively flawed players in one way or another, but if Harry Byrne isn't one of three out halves in the Irish squad this summer then he might as well give it up. He's still a far superior player to Jack Murphy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    I'd be surprised if we brought more outside backs than back 5 forwards, especially considering Frawley is included as a halfback. Maybe Izuchukwu would get in over one of Postlethwaite or Ward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,367 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Prendergast was motm against Ulster a few weeks ago. Farrell supposedly puts a lot of weight on performances in interpros. Murphy, in comparison, had a mare that day. Leinster got in his face and he panicked.

    This isn't a post to big him up the former, but rather to say I don't think either player will be selected for the summer series. Prendergast is too up and down performance wise and I don't think Murphy is ready.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, I guess it's how I classify guys like Jamie Osborne that determines that.

    It's so hard to know, as I said above, where things are in the back three. I think there's a strong argument to bring some new blood there - one of Shayne Bolton or Zac Ward IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Just to clarify - on this, I'm proposing bringing 6 back three & 5 centres, and then 6 back rows and 5 locks. So the same essentially.

    This is similar to what we did in 2024 (6 back three & 4 centres, and 6 back rows and 4 locks) and 2022 (7 back three and 5 centres and 7 back rows and 5 locks).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Did you miss a back row in your original post? Or are you including Bryn Ward?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Oh sorry I did - I actually have Bryn Ward in my original spreadsheet, but then counted him as a development player.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,621 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Ben Murphy should definitely get a call up, he's been really impressive this season.



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