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How many of us think that unification is no longer a priority and don't really want unification ?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody claimed a challenge could not be made or that a decision is immune from one. Why are you pretending they have said this for some facile win??

    Anything can be challenged or judicially reviewed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    And that means, that in making the decision, the British SoS must be mindful of the potential of a judicial review, and make the decision on clear and unambiguous grounds (that they decide on) which would survive a court challenge. They can't just wake up in the morning and call a border poll because nothing.

    Having a discussion on what those clear and unambiguous grounds might be is therefore an appropriate discussion.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Judiciial Review has no grounds to compel the SoS to reveal or explain his/her reasoning.

    Which part of 'He cannot be constrained' is hard to understand?

    What law is going to be invoked in a judicial review?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They are baffling.

    One day we are told 'tens of billions is a lot of money'

    the next we are told 'it's relatively little'.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It is a lot of money.

    It is relatively little per capita for a State with ten times as many taxpayers as us.

    Again, not remotely baffling or mutually exclusive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Pivoting or flip flopping between both because it suits whatever slant you are arguing makes it baffling.

    The British care because they send tens of billions one day then the next sure it's costs them nothing in the grand scheme of things the next day.

    Baffling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Yes, it does.

    Any citizen can take a judicial review against any government/official decision that they believe is irrational or illegal.

    In the case of a decision to hold a border poll, say next week, the decision could be challenged on the basis that there is zero evidence that the passage of a border poll is likely, and that the decision of the SoS should be set aside.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government-in-ireland/how-government-works/standards-and-accountability/judicial-review-public-decisions/

    Given that we share a common law system with the UK, the procedures and principles set out in the attached generally apply in that jurisdiction as well.

    Essentially, a unionist member of the community would be arguing that the decision is ultra vires, that the SoS has strayed from their powers by making a decision to call a border poll when it was unlikely to pass. How high the threshold to overturn a decision is, is for the courts to decide, but I would assert that if a decision was made tomorrow to hold a border poll based on current available information, the courts would cancel the SoS decision.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,953 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.

    I think the wording is important and that is why the previous case went as it did. It does not need to objectively likely to pass, merely likely to pass according to SoS.

    I think there is any reasonable possibility of a BP being subject to JR.

    I also don't think there is the slightest chance of one being called and there is nothing anyone can do about that for the same reason.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    In the case of a decision to hold a border poll, say next week, the decision could be challenged on the basis that there is zero evidence that the passage of a border poll is likely, and that the decision of the SoS should be set aside.

    And the SoS says it is his/her opinion that it is likely to pass.

    The courts have previously said that is ALL the SoS has to do, they cannot be constrained, they can decide as they wish.

    So the SoS can say in reply that his/her judgment is not based on polls but other factors.
    A Unionist stating they think it is 'unlikely to pass' has no legal weight.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl


    In the end of the day, the SoS is subject to laws concerning misfeasence in public office etc. He cannot make an arbitrary decision - there needs to be a fair rationale.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What the SoS can and cannot do is laid down in determinations of the courts. He/She is fully within their rights to call a BP for whatever reason they deem correct. They cannot be constrained by a Unionists view that a successful UI is unlikely or by anything else.
    That Unionist is entitled to challenge but wasting money hasn't concerned them before.

    Read the verdict in the McCourt case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,546 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    They give a lot of money to N. Ireland every year. And public service jobs, more that its fair quota, some of them servicing other public sector departments in mainland Britain.

    The Americans and others too are fond of maintaining NATO control over the north Atlantic. Countries like Finland and Sweden made sure they joined NATO in the past couple of years. If there was a U.I. and NATO lost control of part of the North Atlantic, it would be a step in the other direction. Do not forget the Russians have been mapping our undersea cables etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    You completely misunderstand the court decision. The SoS is not constrained in making his decision, that is clear. He can be irrational, illogical, ideologically driven, whatever in making his decision, but afterwards, if he cannot defend his decision on rational, logical, clear grounds in a judicial review, his decision can be set aside.

    As you say yourself, "the SoS can say in reply that his/her judgement is not based on polls but other factors". When it comes to a judicial review, he will have to set out those factors, justify and defend them. Saying he felt it in his waters won't be enough.

    The McCourt case was all about setting out constraints in advance, it has zero influence on a post-decision judicial review. A Unionist stating they think it is "unlikely to pass" has no legal weight, but an SoS stating that they think it is "likely to pass" but offers zero evidence of such in a judicial review has no legal weight either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    How can a SoS without constraints suddenly be constrained is what you are totally failing to explain.

    The court specifically stated he/she does NOT have to explain or evidence how they arrived at their decision.

    Good luck to any challenger, challenging on the grounds of them thinking it is unlikely to pass, in light of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    If you are in court jumping up and down like a demented Burke, the judge can commit you to prison without constraint.

    However, having done so, lawyers on your behalf may challenge that judge's decision under judicial review.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government-in-ireland/how-government-works/standards-and-accountability/judicial-review-public-decisions/

    The court said that they did not have to explain or evidence in advance how they would consider their decision.

    "In a judicial review, generally the court is not concerned with the merits of the decision but rather with the lawfulness of the decision-making process. This includes reviewing how the decision was made and the fairness of it."

    The sentence in bold is key.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl


    People also forget that the SoS is a representative of the UK government and would be expected to respect decisions made at cabinet.

    My feeling is that when the SoS calls a referendum, it will because, following discussions between both governments, the UK cabinet has endorsed a decision to call the referendum. Note that the SoS is not an absolute appointment. An SoS who doesnt implement UK government policy will simply be removed and replaced by someone else by the UK PM.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,987 ✭✭✭yagan


    There is no written UK constitution.

    If they can partition Ireland then they can jettison NI and Scotland too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    This is true.

    The dream that an SoS is free to go native and call a border poll at the behest of Michelle O'Neill's public statements without any logic, reason or research is what is laughable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Did the Sos exceed his/her powers or remit as laid down?


    No he/she didn't, they are not constrained in making the decision, so it cannot be viewed as unfair. A BP is already provided for in the GFA.
    The challenger is attempting to constrain.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    You don't get it, the McCourt case was about a non-decision and setting the parameters in advance about a decision. That simply cannot be done.

    To give another example, you cannot in advance of a decision by our Government on fuel rebates go to court to set out the parameters in which the Government can make such a decision. However, if the Government does make a decision to introduce fuel rebates, you could go to court to challenge the decision on the basis it was in breach of EU regulation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl


    It works both ways. So if the UK and Irish governments want a poll, it will happen regardless of the views of unionists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Exactly. All the back channel work will be done and cabinets in both jurisdictions on board when it is called.

    The SoS would never move on something like this without prior work and permission from his superiors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Look, the two governments could do the smart thing. Hold a non-binding referendum only in the North outside of the GFA provisions, there is nothing that prevents that. If it is passed, negotiate the details, and then hold the GFA referendums North and South at the same time on the full set of proposals.

    The GFA referendums will not be held until politicians are as close to certain that they will pass, that is why I think a non-binding referendum will happen first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The same courts that will decide on a JR set the parameters on a valid challenge to a SoS decision.

    Again, they said that he/she cannot be constrained - there multiple scenarios where he/she might assess a BP would pass - and that he/she does not have to evidence their decision.

    Good luck overturning that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,546 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    No British Prime Minister or SoS will want to "do a Cameron" on it. Cameron was the one everyone and their dog blamed for the Brexit poll.

    British Prime Ministers and SoS have enough to do, and enjoy a relatively quiet life, without opening 10,000 swarms of bees by introducing a poll leaving open the fragmentation of the UK, have to deal with division of UK national debt, pensions, increased security risks, implications for NATO and defence, increased division in N. Ireland, argument even on minor things like would the St. Patricks Saltire ( currently on the Union Jack representing Ireland) be taken off the Union flag etc.

    Would make Brexit look like a walk in the park. Imagine going down in history as by far the worst British Prime Minister ever?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The UK is fragmenting on it's ownie oh right before all our eyes.

    Like we did since partition, FF FG will ignore events affecting us all until it's too late. Fail to prepare - prepare to fail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,987 ✭✭✭yagan


    In fairness the cross border institutions are at least a framework for normalisation. Since the Irish Sea customs border there's more all Ireland business interconnecting too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    You cannot constrain any Minister for any decision in advance, or for not making a decision, you can only judicially review it afterwards. If you become aware of an imminent decision you believe is illegal, you could attempt to injunct it, but there is a really high bar for that, and would be likely to fail in this case. The court didn't change that.

    The court did not overturn hundreds of years of legal precedent that any government decision can be judicially reviewed and that the remedies include quashing the decision. That is what you are trying to argue.

    The SoS cannot hold a border poll on a whim. He must genuinely believe that it is likely to pass and must be ready to explain and defend that view and the reasons for that view in court. What the McCourt case said was that neither a litigant or the courts could tell the SoS in advance what parameters he must use to reach a conclusion and what factors he must take into consideration. That is all it did. It didn't give the SoS carte blanche to call a border poll, as you seem to think. Whatever parameters he uses, and whatever factors he takes into consideration, he will end up having those challenged in court, and if the court finds that they are irrational or don't meet the test of the GFA, the poll will be pulled.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who said the SoS would do it on a ‘whim’?

    I am saying they will do it after all the back channel work is done and the Irish government have produced a plan.

    ‘Political expediency’ is one of the reasons the court said they could legitimately call a poll.

    The SoS says ‘in my opinion the plan from the Irish government required and deserved to be put before the people and IMO it was likely to succeed’’

    Good luck convincing a court that applying a clause in the GFA is ‘unfair’.

    You can JR, if you wish, nobody has claimed otherwise, the issue is winning a JR



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