Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

Just as big... I have my doubts on that. Better, likewise, time will have to tell on that front. I foresee them being used in tandem at first with EE on the bench for impact and taking his place eventually. If we're to talk ceilings, which some like to do a lot on here, EE's is far higher imo.

He is far less injury prone, EE is still getting back after more than 2 years off the pitch but virtually any time he's been on the pitch since making his return it looks like men against boys at ruck/maul/turnover on the deck. If he keeps injury free the sky's the limit. Up to his injury he was posting similar/better stats than Joe.

Joe is a bit inconsistent for my liking, capable of great performances but can be very ineffective in others, see his Six Nations this year. His effort levels fluctuate. Not worth the three years he got for what he delivers - I expect a Tadhg Beirne or a Sexton for a contract like that tbh.

Joe McCarthy is currently first choice for the national team and could play for another ten years. He's exactly the sort of player that central contracts are designed to keep in Ireland.

Edogbo is a great prospect but very unproven. He's exactly the sort of player who should get an extension on his provincial deal to see where he is a year from now and decide then if he gets a more lucrative provincial/PONI deal.

If there's a problem here, I don't see what it is.

On the one hand RR was not convicted, should he be defined by the withdrawn allegations for the rest of his life without anybody other than himself and the person who made the allegations knowing the truth?

On the other hand Munster Rugby is a business that needs to sell its product, mainly in the form of tickets to the public. If a significant amount of that same public believe that RR is guilty they will not buy tickets. At a time when Munster are struggling to sell their product it is simply not a good business move to place another potential barrier in the way. There are hundreds of thousands of other coaches out there, a better business decision would have been to pick any of them

What's a PGB?

Being a director of multiple companies or a managing director at goldman sachs or a mortgage broker all sounds well and good but it has very little to do with rugby so it actually suggests "jobs for the boys" were made

I don't know will people stop going to Munster games due to the signing of RR in the same fashion that Bohs lost supporters a few years ago. Bohs regularly sell out Dalymount and brought 20,000 to the Aviva in their game with St.Pats earlier in the season so they can likely afford a small drop off in ticket sales. Munster do not share that same luxury and should be pulling out all the stops to keep numbers up, including the scrapping of any and all controversial appointments!

Pre-injury Edogbo he wasn't, that's always been my point about him when people say Joe is "generational" etc.

I think that’s very debatable to be honest. But I’m with you in the sense that I think we label players as “generational” a bit too willy nilly. I don’t think Joe has earned that just yet.

Joe is a better carrier in the loose and probably better option in the lineout because Edogbo is 12kgs heavier, I think Edogbo can do everything else on the pitch better personally. Joe's rucking needs work as been said on here, some of his tackling and effort has been poor this season, silly penalties.

I’d be absolutely gobsmacked if Edogbo is 12kg heavier. I’d find that hard to believe. Edogbo is big but he’s far from a Skelton or Meafu in terms of size. He’s also pretty short at 6’5. McCarthy is an interesting player in that his play-style is more like that of an old school ball carrying no.8 than a lock. I’d actually be fascinated to see him used there, like France have used Guillard at 8. But that ball carrying ability is incredible valuable, particularly when we don’t produced too many big power carriers. That’s what sets him apart. He’s Ireland best ball carrying lock by a distance. I think his ability to disrupt mauls is excellent also. I think where Edogbo is definitely better is at the breakdown on both sides. I don’t have the stats but I’ve seen him win a lot of turnovers.

is everyone delighted with Joe Mc's performances since getting the 3 years...? Maybe people are, I expect more of him tbh. Maybe this plantar injury is hampering him, that's always a possibility, to be fair to him. James Ryan earned his 3 years, I feel Joe's was given on potential after only 17 caps/14 starts

I think his form picked up towards the end of the 6N and recently for Leinster. He definitely had a drop of after his first season and I said as much on multiple occasions. It’s perfectly fair to argue that he got his CC too soon.

To be honest I think we’re in agreement about a lot. The one thing I don’t agree with was when you made out like it was much of a muchness between Edogbo and McCarthy. Right now, it really isn’t. Even allowing for Joe’s inconsistencies, he’s impacted games at a much higher level than Edogbo has up to this point. Edogbo will show how good he is in time. But he’s played barely over 1000 minutes of pro rugby.

Leaving aside the obvious w**k-stain-left-on-the-hand joke you're clearly trying to set me up for. If he wasn't guilty of rape then he would be guilty of having an affair according to the DNA. I'm not so sure people are lining up to cancel season tickets on account of a man whose only crime is having an affair

What happened with Paddy Jackson landed him in court and a jury of his peers found him to not be guilty of the crime that he was charged with. But the court case itself brought the publics attention his actions on a particular night, which were much much worse than any affair. My own belief is if there was no court case but these actions had come into the public vision then Jackson would have been treated the exact same.

The real question is, where do we draw the line on our morals? Bank of Ireland were part of the tracker mortgage scandal which hit families financially very hard at the time, yet we emblazon their logon on the front of our jersey. Should Kyle Hayes be allowed continue playing for Limerick after his antics?

you have no idea what happened that night.

you should cut the BS

For sure I agree with everything you say here.

However the issue for me is more that Munster, as a business, haven't thought this appointment through. If we were flying high in the Champions Cup and the URC and our players had shown an ability to play rugby the last few weeks then loosing a handful of season ticket holders would be much less of an issue. For next season they have a product they need to sell much more desperately than previous seasons but they make these frankly crazy calls

I guarantee you that if the players you mention were kept there would be financial fallouts for their employers.

This latest stuff in Munster reminds me of the Grobelar story, totally unnecessary scandal thats a self inflicted PR wound, except this one has the Jackson precedent that shows how Irish rugby dealt with a similar problem in the past. Basically in exactly the opposite way. IRFU got rid of the guys with a rape accusation hanging over them while Munster just the hired the guy. Executive leadership there is a disaster and journalists harvesting clicks will try (and likely succeed) in getting this outside the sports moat and into general news rotation. Not the kind of coverage Munster need. Kimmage flying in!

I'm pretty sure Kaino went on the end on of season tour in 2017 after he withdrew from the Rugby Championship because of the affair. I seem remember everyone speculating that he was going to head north after the Lions tour due to being mid 30s and unlikely to make the 2019 RWC. Most people assumed Japan as he had done a season or two there previously.

The affair may have hurt his pocket but most AB fans I know didn't care and weren't surprised.

As others have poster here, the issue is perception. The details of the RR case don't make for comfortable reading and the perception created by his hiring is justifiably negative. The facts are that his semen was found on the complainant and she had injuries consistent with a sexual assault. However, the complainant withdrew the legal charges but not the allegation. Make of that what you will. The facts are his DNA were found on her and she had injuries consistent with sexual assault. The facts also are that RR is innocent until proven guilty and the alleged assault took place 30 years ago.

Those are the facts, now for the perception. Munster rugby would position itself as a family friendly entity and hiring a man who was embroiled in this not long after having his first child with his wife doesn't seem congruent with the image that the club wants to portray. It's not a good hire for the club's image or the short term commercial prospects. People will be turned off by this hiring.

But the club may have had a Hobson's choice to face. Maybe McMillian threatened to walk if he didn't get to hire his choice of coach? Jettisoning a new high profile coach over a hiring dispute would also have been damaging to the club. The club is essentially a business and maybe allowing this hiring was perceived as a better business decision?

This issue brings up another question, at what point is someone rehabilitated from their past behaviour and deemed fit for hiring again? Is Paddy Jackson unemployable for life in an Irish rugby context for example?

I'm not trying to justify RR's behaviour 30 years ago but this issue is not as black and white as some make out.

The issue is all up river of this though, Munster managing to get themselves into a situation where they are defending the hiring of this guy is the problem. Why he has a reputational problem is irrelevant, that its become Munster's problem is the issue. There are no other coaches available the world? It simply shouldn't be happening and that it is just indicates that the shot callers are poor executives.

If this helps change the ineffective and unprofessional governance that Munster clearly have, I am all for it.

It must be pretty tough on the family of this Randle to see all this rise from the grave where it has been, in New Zealand business as usual for the past three decades, as he contributed to society and travelled the world including SA, through professional rugby.

The high and mighty's in this country sickens me.

In the PJ example, the IRFU and Ulster didn't want the potential blowback from the public which regardless of how you feel about his case was a good business move to keep their ticket sales and sponsorship money flowing in. For that reason I can see his employment opportunities in the world of rugby to be very limited for the rest of his life.

The sudden sacking of GR, use of PUC for a regular season game and now RR's appointment were bad business decisions and we can see that our team is suffering majorly as a result of them. If it was any other business it would actually be quite satisfying to watch

If the TMO operation is working 100% rather than last week, we might hear less of him.