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Ireland vs Israel - To play or not to play, that is the question Read OP for Mod Warning

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭Enduro


    So we have a poster who lectures us all on ethic and morality, who claims he wants to be able to look his kids in the eye when they ask what he did about the genocide of Palestinians.

    The same poster claims to have a magic solution that allows the FAI to boycott the Israeli games with no financial cost, and by their own words set off a chain reaction that will lead to Israel getting expelled from international football.

    So when his kids ask, he is going to have to explain that he has an amazing solution to the FAI starting a sequence of events leading to Israel being expelled from their most loved sport's international arena, but couldn't do anything with that plan because, I kid you not, an anonymous poster on boards wouldn't say magic words, so he refused to make his plan public.

    YEAAAH RIGHT!

    That's going to be a very embarrassing session on ethics and morality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    My name is Patrick Maguire, so when the virtue signalling idiot is asked why he didnt save the world from Israel he can name me too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,719 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Tell us all this alternative that nobody else has thought about.

    You are badgering a poster for not answering your question.

    I am asking you a question.

    Should be no issue considering you are demanding another poster answers you.

    Fire away and give us your wisdom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,371 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Given you are discussing me, why dont your just post your bullsh1t proposal?

    Because you're not setting the agenda. I asked you a question, answer it, or don't.

    As I said, I've stopped asking you, but I'm still going to post with everything we've seen today in mind.

    See above. I'm not demanding anything, I'm refusing to let them set the agenda or the tone here.

    Are you trying to write for the Daily Mail? Is that what this is? Needs some work. You can read my response at the start of this thread.

    Let's try this one last time, as I was the one who first asked the question this morning.

    If the financial factor of not playing two games against Israel was overcome, would you support calls for a boycott? Once I post the proposal, you can discount it all you want, I know you are going to, I knew that this morning. What I was curious from Paddy_Mag was just how tied he was to preventing talks about a boycott of Israel, and I've gotten that answer, but as you 2 also want to be involved in this discussion, what's your position?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭csirl


    Do you have a job? If so, are you boycotting Isrseli customers, components, supplies, equipment etc?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭Enduro


    My position is that is transparantly obvious you're talking complete nonsence.

    Good luck with explaining your morals to your kids. You're going to need it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,371 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,371 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Is that what is required for everyone before advocating a position on a topic?

    It's the same as the Climate conversation, people making demands of activists knowing that if they were to comply with them they would effectively be prohibited from speaking publicly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,953 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Any excuse eh?

    Theres no magic solution, you weren't expecting to be called on it and have spent the day lashing out now multiple folks have done so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Given there's more than the financial factor to consider, no.

    We are beholden to UEFA and FIFA on which teams participate, we can stay in that club or opt out, Ireland are not going to opt out.

    I bet your solution was ludicrous anyway, but at least you can discount it yourself already.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭Enduro


    It's the requirement you set for yourself in this thread to justify your own positions. All I've done is outline all the positions you have taken since I've caught up with this thread, and pointed out your own inabilty to live up to the standard you have set for yourself. In fact you seem to have taken a position which is completely opposed to the ethical standards which you claim are your motivation.

    The most obvious explanation for this is that your claim to have a magic solution for the FAI is utter nonsense, and that you fear the ridicule you will be subjected to if you say what it is (if it even exists).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,371 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Ireland don't play Israel.

    The international break still goes ahead, Ireland would not have "those" fixtures, so instead, they play two games against Celtic. One in Lansdowne, the other in Celtic Park.

    Pros

    • Given the Ireland/Celtic connection and the support for Palestine amongst Celtic, I think if this was proposed, there is more than a reasonable chance Celtic would go for it.
    • Country versus club friendlies are not common, but most definitely are not completely unheard of
    • The total attendance of the two fixtures would be greater than in 2 fixtures against Israel
    • There would be a market for the TV audience for such a game also
    • Much much less of a headache for the authorities to manage than having the infamous Israeli supporters coming to Dublin
    • Would be a very positive PR message for the FAI to have around such games

    Cons

    • The relentlessly pro-Israel media would launch a very strong campaign against such an event
    • Such fixtures I expect still have to be sanctioned and so again it may come back to UEFA or FIFA who would act in their own interests of course.

    So there it is, a feasible, if not guaranteed alternative solution to playing the representatives of a genocidal state. It's definitely not BS or ludicrous as has been predicted here throughout the day and the fact that the possible reasons it wouldn't happen are because of the influence of the belligerents in this topic is in itself justification for why it should be considered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,719 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Do you realize that Celtic have players that will be on international duty.

    Who are they going to send over the canteen staff and a few reserve players.

    You think in a cost of living crisis that 42,000 around our average attendance are going to pay to watch that.

    I don't think many football fans want to see us banned from international football.

    When we get banned is the plan that we play Celtic every international break for the next few years?

    There is nothing feasible here, I expected something better considering you had all day to make something up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    1. Celtic players will be away on international duty. The Scottish FA will also have to sanction the game in Celtic Park. Ain't gonna happen. They won't piss UEFA off.

    2. FAI have sold ST for 2026. I am a STH and i expect to see an internatonal in the nations league. Refund please FAI, and I wont be alone.

    3. TV companies have paid millions for TV rights to the nations league. They won't shell out for two games v Celtics U19s who have the tea lady in goal and the janitor in midfield

    4. FAI are heavily reliant on UEFA, like most FA are.

    https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1324180416403874&id=offtheball

    5. If the FAI boycott two games to play Celtic the will lose millions more on top of the financial and most likely sporting sanctions to follow.

    1000009654.jpg

    So in closing, your idea is the biggest load of virtue signalling, idiotic, poorly thought out bollox I've read on here. Stick to the fairytales lad, they are more realistic.

    1000009655.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Im Not setting any agenda. Your the one trying to set agenda all day yesterday, demanding agreement before posting.

    Then you posted what you posted. I was right all along. You are a virtue signalling fool.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭csirl


    One big problem with this. If we are suspended from UEFA/FIFA for refusing to play Israel, Celtic wont be allowed play us full stop!

    Notwithstanding the above, its a completely hair brained suggestiion. I take it that you're not a sports fan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,932 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    More ludicrous than thought (let's choose to play a different game and let's pick an "oirish" team) but at least you finally posted it and put the secret out of it's misery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    FIFA/UEFA have put the FAI and the players in a terrible position.

    It is clear that playing the game gives respectability to a country and regime that is commiting genocide. Note: genicide is not an opinion, it is a fact.

    It is not a political decision to not play the game, it is a clear moral one

    However, if they refuse to play the game they get hit with penalties that will cripple the FAI.

    I am not sure what the right answer is. I think we should not play but my livelihood is not impacted.

    Us not playing will not convince Israel to change it is behaviour but that does not mean it is not the right thing to do. The Dunnes strikes over SA didn't convince SA to change but looking back it was clearly right even though it was financially damaging to those involved.

    If Russia can be banned then why not Israel. No one has been able to explain that to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Russia is not an ally of the USA.

    Israel is a key ally of the USA and a big tech sector which has massive links to the USA. And there is also huge banking/financial institution links between USA and ISRAEL.

    1000009659.jpg

    Look at the world cup draw recently. FIFA president fawning over DJT and giving him a "peace medal" after he didnt get the Nobel Peace Prize.

    The USA are co-host of the upcoming world cup.

    The dunnes strikes are not really comparable as individuals made their own choices about a boycott which was on them to own, the consequences of which were on them and them alone, they weren't making decisions that negatively impacted on 100s of other people.

    The FAI have debt of €40m, employs approx 250 people and has obligations to each and every one of those employees. They are heavily reliant on UEFA

    The FAI as a member of UEFA generate nearly all of the €35-40m from match related activity because of UEFA. Ticket sales, sponsorship and TV money the main sources.



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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    MOD NOTE: Thread closed for the meantime. Regardless of warnings people continued personal attacks, misrepresentation and off topic derailment.

    I understand that this is a hot topic but a basic standard of discussion should be maintained. I'll reopen soon when everyone can take a breather and form their arguments in a more productive way.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    Thread re-opened. Keep it civil, from here on in there will be a zero tolerance approach to trolling, abuse, misrepresentation and derailment. There is already a thread for the Israel/Palestine conflict, there are also a threads about other related conflicts. It is assumed that there will be some overlap, but they are not the main topic of discussion.

    Untitled Image


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Us not playing will not convince Israel to change it is behaviour but that does not mean it is not the right thing to do. The Dunnes strikes over SA didn't convince SA to change but looking back it was clearly right even though it was financially damaging to those involved.

    The dunnes thing is not comparable IMO for a number of reasons. If Mary Manning was say in her early 30s, married, 2 kids, mortgage etc, would she have made the same choice given the consequences were much more severe? Especially given the 80s were a grim time in Ireland and jobs werent exactly easy to come by.

    Below is a question to and answer from the FAI CEO Dave Courell. I think he has it spot on. He hasn't got the luxury to make decisions based on being popular, for moral reasons or his own personal opinion. He has a responsibility to the sport and to the employees of the FAI.

    Q: Do you think Israel should be playing in European competition?

    DC: “With all due respect, I’m a football administrator. I’m not a politician. I’m here in my capacity as CEO of the federation. It’s incumbent on me to look at everything through the lens of football and what’s right for the interests of the Irish game. As such, I don’t think my opinion counts"

    Comments like "money isnt important when talking about genocide" but the reality is very different when its peoples livelihoods at stake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,817 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Stop pretending to be worried about the FAI's debts. You never mentioned the thousands of children murdered in Gaza by Israrl or the 165 children murdered in Iran by the US PLUS the double taps to also murder the rescuers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,719 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    The poster is talking about the FAI and the topic of the thread.

    This thread is not about children being murdered.

    Did you quote a post in the wrong thread by mistake?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,719 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    He handled it very well, but he should not be facing those type of questions.

    He is paid to look after the Irish football team and not talk about his opinion on Israel playing in the competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,017 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I can see the debate over whether deciding not to play is the right decision or not.

    But the notion that 'doing the right thing would cost us too much money' is pretty damn ugly.

    This comment:

    Comments like "money isnt important when talking about genocide" but the reality is very different when its peoples livelihoods at stake

    is particularly ugly as it effectively acknowledges that there is a genocide, but we should look the other way lest it cost us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    The topic is Ireland V Israel football matches and whether they should go ahead.

    Please stop misrepresenting what i say to suit your own agenda. Or making statements/accusations about what I believe. You don't know me and what my beliefs are , political or otherwise.

    You dont even know what the nations league is judging by your posts over the weekend, so presumably you dont know why it came about. But I will fill you in.

    There was an abundance of international friendlies but dwindling crowds, poor TV viewership (which caused a drop in TV rights) so a new set up was created with jeopardy.

    Promotion and relegation. This feeds into seeding for euro and World Cup draws

    This has seen a reduction in meaningless friendlies which has seen atrendances increase, TV audience increase leading to higher revenues for football associations. UEFA sold the TV rights to the nations league on 4 year blocks. We are halfway through the current block.

    The FAI are in dire financial straits. But in 2028 Ireland hosts games in the Euros which is worth reputedly €25m to the FAI alone. So the FAI is threading water until then. The nations league income in autumn/winter 2026 is absolutely vital to keeping the FAI afloat. The EURO 2028 income will give the FAI an opportunity to get itself out of the financial mess it is fighting.

    For all the talk about the government bailing them out if they boycott the israel games, why have the government not thrown a pile of cash at them to get them debt free?

    It doesn't matter whether i care or not about the FAI finances. It really doesn't. But I live in the real world. I understand what it's like to be made redundant, the months of not knowing, the unknown etx.

    But to those people who are employed by the FAI and whose livelihood is 100% reliant on the income the FAI derives from playing matches in front of big crowds in the Aviva as well as the TV rights money the FAI gets from UEFA, it very much matters to them. Food on the table, mortgage or rent, utility bills, kids education.

    If you dont want to accept that, thats fine. But i would be if the opinion that if your livelihood was at stake, your opinion would be very different. And if your wages stopped arriving into your back account, you wouldnt be all that happy about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,817 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Yeah yeah Grab the cheque and let the children die. Shur they're only Muslim. Your posts are very similar to another poster who signed off just over a year ago. This is more important than football but you know that too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,953 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    And now drag up religion.



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