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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,305 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It is, but sure here we are.

    You've done nothing, as always, to dispel the science.

    I only had to dispel your ridiculous claim -

    What someone says or feels has zero impact on scientific fact.

    I’ve done that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,750 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I’ve done that.

    You haven't.

    People can say or feel what they want, it won't change the DNA they have. Simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    It's good of you to bring up the LGFA having transwomen compete in their sport. The poster Boggles has been claiming that no such thing happens. (I'd posted about this myself a page back).

    No I didn't. I asked several times to quantify how many play sports at any level. Given no one could, the assumption was none or at least not many.

    So far you have come up with one from 4 years ago. Are they still playing?

    So the answer looks like either 1 or 0 again, would that be accurate?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I didn't storm away. I only noticed after posting a few times that it was "The Ladies Lounge" so as a man I don't feel that's really an appropriate forum for me to be in. "If you were man enough to stick around" are you 10 years old?

    If calmly stating "Just realised this is The Ladies' Lounge, I'm out." defines storming out that's on you for being easily outraged.

    Ah yes the known transphobe poster who is banned, happy enough to not read their rhetoric.

    I accept Caster Semanya to be female as do the IOC if they are willing to allow her to compete in the female category once she accepts to taking hormone suppressants.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I accept Caster Semanya to be female as do the IOC if they are willing to allow her to compete in the female category once she accepts to taking hormone suppressants.

    They aren't willing to. That is the entire point of the recent news.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    The new IOC policy would not allow Semanya to compete in the women's category.

    AFAIK men are welcome in the ladies lounge if they refrain from mansplaining.

    I have been clear throughout that I believe in biology and I use male and female in that sense. Do you accept that The Daily Mail article stating that males won the three Olympic medals was correct, and that I was correct when I said Semanya was male - or can you refute the Open University article?

    Can you provide evidence for your assertion that @volchitsa is a transphobe (bearing in mind what that word actually means) rather than someone who thinks the right of 51% of the world's population to their private spaces (including sporting competition) should take precedence over the desire of a small number of males to have their chosen identity validated? That's a pretty fundamental democratic principle. Do you support democracy in principle, flawed though it is in practice?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,305 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Your original claim I have dispelled. Your new claim, is also not scientific fact, it’s a two-part statement that’s doing nothing more than stating the bloody obvious.

    For the sake of the same simplicity, I’m assuming you’re referring to sex, and you mean at will. That’s just nature, not scientific fact. It cannot be shown to be wrong.

    You’re not likely to see the results of your broader hypothesis as the results are unlikely ever to be made public, it’ll simply be the case that women who see themselves as women, it turns out that their chromosomes indicate they are to be classified as men. Provided they don’t look like men, I would imagine the sports organisations which use the test will keep shtum, in order to uphold the idea that the testing works as intended. It worked before, until it didn’t -

    https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/decision-to-abolish-gender-testing-at-sydney-olympics-supported-by-yale-physician/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I'm not getting into a trans debate with people who refuse to see anything other male/female.

    This is not storming away, it is just not engaging in a topic that is not worth my time, blown massively out of proportion and pushed by right wing media in an attempt to stoke "culture wars" to distract from actual real issues in the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Grand, I'm not fond of debating with someone who won't accept science.

    The topic of Semanya's sex has nothing to do with trans - it's all about biology. Saying otherwise is just obfuscation.

    So, something which affects 51% of the population is blown massively out of proportion? Or is that your way of tacitly admitting that you're out because the facts are against you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    something which affects 51% of the population is blown massively out of proportion?

    Trans people are not an issue that affect 51% of the population. That is simply your opinion, not a fact.

    Enjoy your thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Again with the distortions. I didn't say that people being trans, whatever that means, is an issue, or that that issue affects 51% of the population. I was referring to the idea that men wanting to be in places that should rightly be reserved for women could affect any woman, and that women might not have control over that, given the current legal and social climate. I'd argue that this is an issue that affects men too - we all live in the same society and it's in our interests to have legislation based on facts rather than feelings.

    I note your lack of an answer on the science question - do you accept or reject the source I provided to support my assertion re Semanya's sex?

    BTW it's not my thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    What part of "it is just not engaging in a topic that is not worth my time," did you not understand? It is not an acceptance or rejection of anything.

    Please do not respond to this post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I'm free to respond to any post, just as you are free to ignore my response(s), and other posters are free to draw their own conclusions as to why you are unwilling to debate science, and why you want to mischaracterise this as a trans debate.

    I understood perfectly - you have realised that your arguments are lacking in rigour, so you have chosen not to present them in the hope that no inference will be made as to their inadequacy. It was a vain hope.

    Edit to correct a typo.

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Don't know if you've heard the expression "If you can't see it, you can't be it". It's often applied to women's sports, as well as other areas of life. It's also widely believed to be true, ie. that women are inspired to participate in sport when they see other women get to the top and succeed.

    My own daughter has taken a huge interest in women's athletics (and a lesser extent men's) since we entered this golden age of Irish women competing at the top internationally, and let's face it, comparatively better than Irish men. You can't help but notice the amount of younger women out jogging and running on the streets these days.

    If that acts as an encouragement to women, then seeing biologically male get to the top of a women's sport, has the opposite effect. I'll concede it hasn't happened much here yet (to my knowledge) due to the small numbers, but in the US, which is further down the path of trans inclusion than we are, it has led to women "quiet quitting" from particularly woke sports like cycling, and saying to themselves "What's the point busting a gut training if a middle of the road male can come along and take the medals?" or having to accept a participative role and taking what they can from that. Sure enough, some women are happy with that. But you need to get into the social pressures that are exerted on women to conform, which is why if they do quit, it tends to be done quietly.

    We can't tell exact percentages. But, imo if women are "affected" in a good way by seeing other (biological) women succeed in sport, then they are also affected by seeing males take women's places at the top of their sport, even when they know they might never be that woman.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The only opinions that are mock that those are that fundamentally ridiculous.

    The issue of trans rights, and the issue of trans people in sports are separate issues. The idea that you have to get behind both or else you some unwoke boomer is idiotic.
    If you want to make an argument, make an argument. Attacking people people personally, not their statements is last resort stuff. Anyone going there first evidentially had nothing worthwhile to say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I recently learned the concept of moral injury. I think it applies where people are gaslit. Like the women in that 800m race, expected to believe that the men on the podium were women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    … science to answer questions it simply cannot answer, such as questions of whether or not men who say they are women have an advantage in women’s sports that could be regarded as unfair.

    Science can answer than very easy.
    A person assign male at birth, who transitions to live an a female post puberty, retains a significantly physical and hormonal advantage.
    If a person assign female at birth sought the same hormonal advantage exogenously, and were cauht. They would be banned for life.

    I’d suggest they’re at a rather considerable disadvantage given how they are likely to be perceived, but that’s just me.

    That doesn't appears to be based on any fact related to performance.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    The question is what should be a persons defining characteristic. Their biological sex (male/female) or their gender.

    Your biological sex is independently observable, has strong differences between the categories (male/female) and is fixed, you can't change it.

    Your gender is not independently observable, can have strong differences within the categories (transwoman/woman), and is a very malleable concept, you can change it regularly.

    When it comes to sport it's your biological sex which is the defining characteristic because of the physical advantages males have over females. Yes there are people with DSDs but the question there is what sex are they. They're not a new sex nor do they change sex.

    How important this is down to you. I don't think this is the most important issue facing the country, that's housing, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue. When the IRFU changed their rules that only females could play in the women's category they faced a lot of criticism for it, even though from a biomedical point of view this is basic stuff, so to those people it was important.

    For example Leo Varadkar, who was Tanasite at the time, said

    “I think it’s something that sporting bodies in Ireland and around the world are really struggling with. I think it is very important that the IRFU and World Rugby and anybody that’s making decisions on this listens to the voice of those who are most affected, and of course those who are potentially most affected here are those who may be excluded from playing sport. I think it is very important that their voice is heard in this debate,” 

    That's a bit of a wishy washy statement but does look like he was against the new policy as World Rugby did extensive work and heard from a lot of different groups in researching it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


     I'll concede it hasn't happened much here yet (to my knowledge) due to the small numbers, but in the US, which is further down the path of trans inclusion than we are

    We actually do have some official figures from the States.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/5046662-ncaa-president-transgender-athletes-college-sports/

    “How many athletes are there in the U.S. in NCAA schools?” Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) asked Baker during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Tuesday on federal regulations around sports gambling. 

    “Five hundred and ten thousand,” said Baker, a former Republican governor of Massachusetts who has served since 2023 as president of the NCAA, which governs intercollegiate athletics at more than 1,000 colleges and universities across the country. 

    “How many transgender athletes are you aware of?” Durbin asked. 

    “Less than 10,”

    So less than 10, so that figure is between 0 and 9.

    That could be between 0 and 9 trans women or 0 and 9 trans men.

    But no one cares about trans men, so we will go high and say 6 trans women.

    6 out of 510,000.

    Which gives us 0.0012%.

    If girls are "quiet quitting", it's nothing to do with trans people. Would you agree given there is virtually none playing sports in that fairly substantial sample size?

    I also found this stat.

    This bizarre focus on trans people, who make up approximately 1% of the population, is demonstrated by the fact that as of March 15, there have already been over 745 anti-trans bills introduced in state legislatures across the country in 2025 alone.

    It's almost like something else is going on here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Yes, it's not nearly as widespread as the twitter column inches dedicated to it would suggest. It absolute dominates a disproportionate amount of the discussion. There are obvious reasons for that.

    Of course, the occurrence rate, has no bearing on whether it is morally wrong in itself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    It's not the cranks on twitter that is the main concern.

    Again

    This bizarre focus on trans people, who make up approximately 1% of the population, is demonstrated by the fact that as of March 15, there have already been over 745 anti-trans bills introduced in state legislatures across the country in 2025 alone.

    Something else is at play here.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Something else is at play here.

    Yes, it has become a massive focus because the right wing elements you hate so much were able to utilise it because they are so obviously objectively correct and arguing against it makes those who supports trans rights look stupid. Had everyone just acknowledged that obviously, regardless of the prevalence, transwomen in female sport is obviously unfair and shouldn't be allowed the whole thing would have disappeared as a discussion point years ago.

    It is irrelevant how many transwomen were in female sport. Because if it is zero, then banning them doesn't matter and if it is more than zero than it was having an impact on female sports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I don't think this is the most important issue facing the country, that's housing, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue

    It's not even an issue in sports here.

    The 3 main issues we face at the moment, is pitch availably, coaching availability and official availability.

    Then their is 1000 other issues, none of which relate to trans people.

    To mention it in the same sentence as housing is very strange.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Being antii-trans, and being against transwomen in womens sports are entirely separate viewpoints.
    Speaking out against bigotry is should be supported, but choosing to undermine the fairness of sport is a poor means of doing so.

    The bigots latch on the to sports aspect so tightly, because it allows them to dress their bigotry up in a view that is just and fair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,895 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Again, Varadkar pretending this is about excluding people from playing sport, when the question is about what category a particular person is eligible for. That's very disingenuous, he's smart enough to know the difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    No. I don't think we should kowtow to Cranks and Bigots because they get cranky and bigoted.

    We have seen what has happened in America where most of this culture war nonsense is imported into here from.

    The all out war on trans people, a minority of an minority, or trans people in sports where there virtually isn't any has nothing really to do with trans people.

    It's a trojan horse to go after the rights of everyone else they despise, ironically the main target being women or specifically women's rights.

    These cranks believe women shouldn't be playing sports at all, they should be at home minding a team of offspring being subservient to their husband.

    The gross ignorance is in just allowing them to an attack the smallest minority because they think they will leave everyone else alone.

    The amount of women who have died and become chronically unwell since they overturned reproductive health rights dwarfs by some degree the number of trans people in sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Being antii-trans, and being against transwomen in womens sports are entirely separate viewpoints.

    I think you'll find the all bigots would be both.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No. I don't think we should kowtow to Cranks and Bigots because they get cranky and bigoted.

    There is nothing cranky or bigoted about acknowledging biological men in female sport is unfair. Trying to defend that as a progressive viewpoint just ends up making you look silly.

    Those who mean ill are using this as a wedge issue precisely because it is an issue they are completely correct on and have overwhelming support for. Giving them that wedge issue is stupid.

    Transwomen (and indeed males with DSDs) should not be in female sport. If everyone just accepted that fairly clear viewpoint then we wouldn't have an issue here at all and there would be nothing to exploit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    There is nothing cranky or bigoted about acknowledging biological men in female sport is unfair.

    That isn't what I said, but you know that.

    Irish Trans people should be encouraged to play sports, as all people should, at a level that suits their ability.

    But sadly none do and are not likely to in the future given the sustained campaign of hate and fear mongering that has been waged upon them.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    It's funny the word bigot has been mentioned as the Meriam Webster dictionary defines that word as

    " a narrow-minded person who obstinately adheres to their own opinions and prejudices

    especially one who strongly and unfairly dislikes or feels hatred toward others based on their group membership"

    The Cambridge dictionary defines it as

    "person who has strongunreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life"

    According to those two definitions there is a lot of bigotry going on, bigotry against women.



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