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Bus Éireann Expressway Cut 3 Routes

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,679 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The way understood it the routes were set out and companies tendered for them. Not sure they are allowed run a parallel service.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Companies can request a license for any route they think might work. There is no tendering and the NTA don’t create the routes. The NTA does have a framework/rules on licenses they will award, like max two operators on a route and scheduled departures must be at different times, usually 30 minutes apart, etc. But in general it is up to operators to create new routes and apply for the license.

    There is no issue with parallel routes, for instance on the Galway corridor, you have Citylink operating multiple routes, both non stop, stopping and direct to airport routes in parallel. Plus famously back in the day Aircoach changed their Cork to Dublin stopping service to a non stop service when the motorway was built.

    There is no reason why BE couldn’t have jumped in and tried to create similar new routes back in the day before the other operators launched their routes, but BE management seemed to sit on their hands and do nothing, not launching any new routes. The only thing they did was partner with GoBus on the GoBE service, which frankly just showed how incompetent they were and how badly they misread where the market was going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭Gold7


    Could the reason the 4 is being axed is that maybe more passengers are travelling via the M11 on the BE Expressway 2 or Wexford Bus 740/X and changing buses at Wexford for Waterford ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,481 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    not a hope. Why would they go a much longer route to do that? They’re using the Dublin coach, JJ kavannagh or Irish rail options all of which are quicker



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,914 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    Ok, put me out of my misery 😂. I know Burkes, BÉ, Citylink and Mullins. Who are the other two? I'm guessing they are serving the colleges.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭DUBLINBUSGUY


    Bus Feda Teoranta, Treacy Coaches and TFI Local Link Galway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    Maybe BE management felt at the time that with limited resources from the NTA and/or the department of transport it would be more within the public interest for them to focus on existing routes rather than putting resources into routes which could be fulfilled using private capital. I could also remind you there is nothing stopping Go-Ahead Ireland starting their commercial routes from scratch either and there are a good few other operators such as JJ Kavanagh which operate a mix of commercial and PSO routes.

    Remember the primary function of a semi state body is to provide a service not turn a profit. Of course it's a bit different now with the NTA calling all the shots in relation to PSO services and management in the three companies purely obeying NTA orders now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,914 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    Ah, Feda makes sense. I didn't realise TFI went to the city. I've seen Treacys around but thought they were private hire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,018 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Looks like Treacey do one college run each week:

    https://bustimes.org/services/ng01-nuig-ballina-ballina-bus-station

    The Local Link is 3 times a day, and a bit of a long way around:
    https://www.locallinkgalway.ie/dynamic-timetables/route-438-tuam-to-galway



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Expressway is the commercial arm of BE, it has nothing to do with the government and isn't funded by the government or the NTA. Expressway services are funded by BE by raising debt and investing in new services, exactly the same as any other company.

    Other then the issue of licenses, the government has no control over Expressway, no more then they do of Dublin Bus operating hop on hop off tour buses or the old Airlink service.

    Also semi states are absolutely required to make a profit! You are completely wrong on that. The whole purpose of a semi state is to run like any private company, they have a board and a CEO and most at least attempt to make a profit like any company. They have to follow the exact same company laws as any private company and operate in the same manner.

    I'm not sure what your point about JJKavanagh and Go Ahead is, yes any company, either private or semi state can compete for PSO tenders or/and apply for commercial licenses. DB, BE and Irish Rail all have commercial arms and activities, not just PSO and yes private companies like JJKavangh operates both commercial and PSO services.

    In the end they are all just companies, whether they are "semi state" or private owned is irrelevant both in terms of company law, but also how they operate and compete.

    Post edited by bk on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 CasNiRas


    At the moment, 18 services go through Tuam. At least according to the below site.

    https://bustimes.org/search?q=Tuam

    Burkesbus

    · 427: Dunmore – Tuam – Galway
    · 428: Tuam – Galway

    Bus Éireann

    · 429: Galway – Tuam – Castlerea
    · 417: Galway – Corofin Cross – Tuam
    · 64: Galway – Killea
    · 65: Galway – Athlone – Monaghan
    · 52: Ballina – Castlebar – Galway

    Farragher International Travel Services

    · 441: Corofin – Tuam
    · 484: Glennaneeny – Tuam
    · 527: Glennaneeny – Tuam
    · 488: Glennaneeny – Dunmore

    TFI Local Link Galway

    · 438: Galway – Tuam

    Bus Feda Teoranta

    · 964: Galway – Croithlí

    Michael Moran

    · UL05: Westport – Limerick

    Westlink Coaches

    · NG05: Ballinamore – Galway

    Citylink

    · 721: Castlebar – Dublin – Dublin Airport
    · 430: Ballina – Galway

    Treacy Coaches

    · NG01: Ballina – Galway

    Some of them don't list Tuam as a stop when you click on the route number to get more information, so perhaps it's just a request stop.

    I'm not sure if the website above is up to date, but it says there are nine different operators serving the town?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,914 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    They are passing through the town but only two do the Tuam-Ballina route on a regular commuter basis and the only one that does a late evening return is being cancelled.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭coolisin


    I live on the no4 route, we have used it a couple times coming late out of Dublin, it was a good option, as the Train doesn't offer the same service later in the evening

    It is funny too that a recent win for the local FF county councillor was new busstops for this route in particular.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 burningrubbish


    Could it just be the price of oil is rising, nothing nefarious from BE, going to be diesel shortages in the coming months so get ahead of it and try save fuel for the busy routes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,112 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Aah, the benefits of having a transport minister as local TD 😶

    Transport Minister and Galway East TD Seán Canney has confirmed that a PSO will be put in place to maintain the BÉ 52 service. Minister Canney says this Ballina service is a vital link for communities across Mayo & Galway - connecting people to work, education and healthcare



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,481 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I can see Expressway going out of business. Any business that is continually retreating and losing money cannot be viable longer term. Might be best let it go and something else fill the void. This constant uncertainty and route cutting is terrible



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,914 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    That was quick. Just in time for the front page of the Tuam Herald tomorrow.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    They could perhaps sell off that part of the business or perhaps just sell the route licenses (I’m not sure that is allowed). At least get some value out of it and perhaps another operator could revitalise the remaining network.

    Of course use of depots and bus stations would complicate that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    They aren’t PSO routes. If there is a a public service element to them, then they should be funded as such.

    One of the reasons for the cuts is because of rail eating their dinner on some of these routes too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    The reports leading the closure of these routes are nearly two years old now. It’s nothing to do with short term events, for Bus Eireann to do anything (including something “commercial” like Expressway), they have to jump through political hoops to do it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Part of the issue for them though is the unions and the politics. They can’t be agile versus competitors. Expressway is often being used as a means to provide PSO services without paying for them by the NTA. The good quality routes that make cash subsidise the ones that aren’t and they can’t make transformative moves because it will upset politicians. They will tinker around the edges to try to make a difference but can’t do much.

    All of this becomes an issue for Expressway and Bus Eireann as a whole as they can’t make decisions to actually make the commercial operator work.

    Really Expressway should just be sold, as there’s so much commercial competition for it. Then we can have a clean slate and actual PSO worthy routes can be funded by the exchequer as required. It doesn’t make sense for Bus Éireann to be supposedly be wearing two hats when they can’t actually wear the commercial hat properly in any case.

    I also know for a fact that the changes to the student rail prices had a huge impact on many routes. So we have this scenario where other public subsidises were dragging down the performance of a supposedly commercial operation, but the commercial arm can’t act commercially in response as it’s within this bizarro mishmash world that is this company.

    The point on the depots and drivers is correct above though and makes the sale of Expressway a challenge.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I agree with a lot of what you say, but historically it was the opposite, BE use to use it's massive scale as a PSO operator to cross subsidise expressway services and crush new commercial operators.

    After all Expressway used the same depots and bus stations as their PSO services, same mechanics, same marketing department, etc. and could use their scale buying so many coaches for both services to get good deals.

    In the past when a private operator started a new route, BE would jump in and start a route that would run just 5 minutes earlier and undercut the private operator prices until they drove them out. They were famous for doing this.

    This of course was pre-NTA, when the NTA took over licensing, they put an end to this sort of thing, requiring 30 minutes gaps between departures, etc. And also they required BE to properly account for the benefit they got from using the depots, bus stations, etc. Expressway part of the company had to pay the real cost of these services and couldn't dip into the PSO side of the company any more.

    It basically became a level playing field for Expressway at this point and from then is when they have struggled to compete.

    I don't like seeing any routes close down, either Expressway ones or Aircoach, etc. But I do think we are in a much better place today, with far more services then 20 years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,914 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    He actually only made page 4 and it was the SF lad who contacted the minister for transport. Canny just took the credit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    The view would be the opposite now. Expressway absorbs a lot of BE’s overall overhead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,864 ✭✭✭jd


    Some comments from Wexford Bus at

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/absolute-dismay-at-bus-eireanns-cancellation-of-key-route-but-wexford-bus-will-fill-the-gaps/

    “We already offer a really comprehensive service on Waterford, but if there are gaps, as a result of this, we will have a look at the gaps and we will certainly work with the NTA to fill those gaps,” Mr Crowley said, as he also acknowledged that the Expressway is “a commercial activity that just wasn’t working for them”.

    "He explained that if Wexford Bus was to pick up on those withdrawn services, it would be at least September of this year before it would be operational as most of the service users would be students and they’d have finished this academic year by the end of May. Mr Crowley added that the service, if introduced, would commence from Wexford town, rather than in Rosslare Harbour as there’s a Local Link bus every hour from the Harbour into town, “but that’s something that would have to be looked at in more detail,” he continued.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    Looks like the 52 will remain as a PSO route https://www.westernpeople.ie/news/ballina-to-galway-bus-route-retained_arid-93371.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,921 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    that's good news.

    hopefully now exact replacements are found for the others quickly.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,056 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    What exactly happens if an Expressway route changes to PSO?

    Different vehicles?

    Same BE drivers?

    Are the fares cut?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,633 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think that some of the comments above are perhaps a little bit harsh about BÉ Expressway.

    The world was a different place back in the 1990s and early 2000s when commercial operators finally got the chance to operate services in competition with Bus Éireann. Until the NTA arrived in 2009, there was no proper process in place to manage the licensing of services - the Department of Transport had not got a clue and frankly the whole set up was grossly unfair to all of the operators and in many cases the passengers who weren't given the services that they deserved.

    For the record, I certainly would not condone some of the behaviour of Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus in the face of some of the new commercial operators back in those days, when they tried to flood some of them out of business. That was disgraceful.

    But I do think that it you could certainly argue that when Bus Éireann's routes were finally formally split between commercial and PSO, that some of the commercial routes really should have been designated as PSO from the word go - they were Expressway in name only, and I suspect were very difficult to operate on a commercial basis and that has been borne out by the changes over the years with the 5, 7, X8 and 21 all being replaced in full or part by PSO services.

    Whether BÉ could have delivered the non-stop end-to-end services along the motorways as one poster suggested they should have done will remain a doubt in my mind.

    • For one, I have always suspected that they just didn't have the internal finances to invest in the fleet of vehicles that would have been needed for non-stop services on the Cork, Limerick and Galway routes. Genuinely I just don't think that they had the money to do it (assuming that they were forced to maintain the existing services).
    • Second is the reality that, until the NTA arrived in 2009, there was still significant political interference in the day-to-day operations of both Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus, even when it came to the commercial Expressway services. The political furore that would have happened had Bus Éireann then said that they were re-routing the X8 onto the motorway and abandoning the calls at the towns along the route would have been massive. I just think that it would not have been possible to do it - things were far more complicated then. The NTA took great care in setting up the 828 service that replaced the X8 serving the towns between Portlaoise and Cashel so that there were connections maintained when that first withdrawal by BÉ took place.

    The arrival of the NTA at least has brought about a proper process for licensing bus services, and importantly the recognition that some of the routes that I mentioned above that Bus Éireann withdrew from or changed, were in part PSO in nature that needed subsidies to operate.

    I think that in the short term you are already seeing Bus Éireann withdrawing from the rural once-a-week services (being replaced rightly by Local Link), and I think that we may well see further changes in the long term in the Expressway network, and that the company will focus on delivering the PSO services in cities and towns, commuter routes and the regional PSO network which they developed successfully as part of Connecting Ireland.

    On the routes in question now, my guess is as follows:

    I suspect that you will see PSO services being maintained on the 40, certainly between Waterford and Wexford, along with the 52 between Galway and Ballina, but I would think that both of these will be at a reduced frequency.

    With regard to the 4, I suspect that some form of PSO service will cover the Carlow-Waterford section - with connections at Carlow for Dublin with JJK services. Again, I suspect frequency will reduce.

    They will have to be put out to tender in the medium term, but in the meantime Bus Éireann will probably still operate the 40 and 52 while the Carlow-Waterford route would be more likely to be a Local Link service operated with an Evora bus.

    If routes get converted to PSO, then PSO national fares will apply, which will be significantly lower than the commercial fares.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭john boye


    Regarding political interference in Expressway, it still goes on. They were recently pressured to change the 2 back to the previous (slower) routing via Vincent's Hospital. In part to replace the 84A which was lost in Bus Connects changes. A change the NTA made, ironically.



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