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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Hard to miss! -To use a bad pun- Madigan regularly spoken about it over the last year. He's not pro Dave Alred, who is/was Sextons "guru". Apparently Crowley also.

    kk.JPG

    Stats up to the 11th March 2026 (before the Scotland game)


    James Humphreys showed a nice natural kicking style v Zebre. It did though look remarkably like his Dads!

    Doak, Murphy, Humphreys -Ulster. Madigan a fan of Richie Murphy

    Post edited by ionadnapóca on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The online outrage over the De Luttis saga is gas. Australian Rugby seem to have unlimited funds to throw at NRL players. Yet the prospect of a 22 year old injury prone prop moving abroad to take a better offer has their fanbase in meltdown, playing the paupers having their players "poached" by big, bad Ireland.

    The whole "poaching" thing is hilarious. This isn't some 14 year old scoolboy from a poor Fijian village being enticed leave with a scholarship and the prospect of representing their new country and the money that comes with it (as NZ, France and Australia themselves have previous for). He's a 22 year old professional athlete getting an offer to work abroad. He's Irish eligible since birth, so very different to a project player scenario. If Australian rugby allow him to leave, it's because they think he's worth less than what the IRFU are offering him and aren't willing to match it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Naughton has a lovely, natural kicking technique (which Madigan has been complimentary of), and to my untrained eye the closest to Thomas Ramos' of any Irish player.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I wouldnt have any sympathy for Australia myself. If the player is Irish qualified then thats fair enough in my book. I remember the Australia squad that played Ireland in 2018 had an incredible amount of players that qualified under residency.

    Koribete (Fiji), Kuridrani (Fiji), Kerevi (Fiji), Naivalu (Fiji), Genia (PNG), Tupou (Tonga), Latu (Tonga).

    Personally I'd prefer if Ireland developed their own first and foremost. There is a good number of young 19-21 year olds THPs coming through. Bishti, Niall Smyth, Andrew Sparrow, Alex Mullan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    A fella with Irish parents/grandparents is infinitely more “our own” than Meafu or Atonio are “France’s own”. Yet you never hear a peep from anyone when they line out for France.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Kicking stats can be an inexact reflection of a kickers competence. I remember Chris Patterson having brilliant kicking stats but he never took a penalty kick that was much beyond 30 metres. If stats were broken down as to where the kicks were taken from etc that would be far more informative than simply how many went over. Someone a few years ago produced a really detailed analysis of the main kickers of that era involving a comprehensive list of detailed information on each kick. For example, David Humphreys if I remember correctly was rated as the 15th best while ROG was rated lower yet we probably would have put money on it being the other way round.

    It is interesting that Murphy has a 'higher' success rate than Doak. It would be instructive to compare the kicks taken by each. I wonder is it possible that Doak attempts longer, wider kicks than Murphy for example. I have no idea if this is so. Just interested. S.P. at U20s seemed to be a fabulous goal kicker. Maybe he has been 'coached' to bits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    100%, ideally there would be a kicking stat along the lines of xG in football.

    Ulster pretty much never kick penalties so I think it's reasonable to assume Doak and Murphy have faced a roughly similar difficulty of kick, i.e. almost exclusively conversions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    If there's a tough kick that we need to make, Doak takes it. Doak is a much better kicker than Murphy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Surely Murphy only kicks when Doak is not on the pitch?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    They're happy with it. They've been selecting NZ and Australian born players for decades.



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,927 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    genia didnt qualify under residency, his mother was australian.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,762 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    xG is stupid like many forms of stats. People don't seem to understand that the math that's used is infinite so it'll be never accurate over a small sample. And a small sample is 5k or less.

    I wouldn't use it unless I could run it a minimum of 10k times and even then you are not guaranteed that it will be close to accurate.

    Something like degree of difficulty of each kick and a stat not solely about kicking percentage. So attach a point score for each kick. A conversion under the posts gets one point, a conversion from the sideline or a kick from the halfway line in the centre gets three and so on. Accumulate the points and divide by the amount of kicks taken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    And then there's the 'clutch kick' element to consider. One right footed kicker's conversion from the right touchline when his team is 44-5 ahead is hardly equivalent to a 30 metre from just right of the posts when 1 point behind and the clock in the red. Pressure is not just for tyres. Combining good technique with intense practice builds habit and under pressure it's habit that determines outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    True. And Latu grew up in Sydney. Tupou had to qualify on residency as he's grown up in NZ after his family moved there. As always there's a lot of context needed when talking about players qualifying for countries they weren't born in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I think recently Murphy got to kick when Doak was on the pitch - just before Doak joined the international squad. Getting Murphy up to speed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    SP is an example of a natural kicker who's confidence is shot to bits from the tee.

    Nobody can definitely say its a result of coaching. I would say though; coaching certainly hasn't been part of the solution.

    He knocked them over from every angle at U-20s (Richie Murphy).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 934 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Agree kicking & confidence are entirely aligned well beyond coaching or process IMHO. Timer also adds the pressure dimension which can be significant if kicker was inevitably involved in the pre try activity leading to mental or physical fatigue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,762 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Well personally I don't see any difference between a kick in the first and eightieth minute.

    People talk about pressure but that's just a player being badly prepared. It's fine to realise the moment but then you have to go back into your game mode, your ritual before a kick. All players should be prepared for this. It's on the management if they are not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,711 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah and that's fine in theory. In theory, people are all rational actors and sports stars are trained to handle pressure. Back here in reality, things like fatigue and pressure really do matter. To expect otherwise is silly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,355 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    The irfu should be looking to develop full backs and fly halfs to take goal kicks.

    10s almost have enough to be doing during a game in terms of workload and managing a game



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    or anyone who place kicks while amateur players should maintain it and do it at some stage through their pro career. Like there was so much press bull and talk about garry ringrose kicking at goal when at school yet hes never done it at all really in the pro game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If you're not going to be first choice kicker in the match day squad, why would you bother with the extra hours of training.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,378 ✭✭✭visatorro


    Conor Murray would have kicked a couple of important kicks. Practice surely helped



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Same reason any professional athlete tries to improve at anything. Get selected, get better contracts, get paid more. Would Ramos be as valuable to Toulouse and France if he wasn’t a world class kicker as well as a world class 15? Of course not. Would Doak be as valuable to Ulster?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Did it stop Henshaw getting a contract, there's a reason why lots of kickers at underage level give it up as they progress to senior level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Obviously it didn't stop Henshaw getting a contract. You’re missing my point. Goal kicking is a skill. A quality goal kicker brings value to a squad. And the more valuable you are to a squad, the more money you get when it’s negotiation time. You asked why a professional rugby player might try to improve at a skill. There you have one. Why would a player improve their passing, or tackling, or footwork?

    When Madigan/Carbery/Byrne were coming through at Leinster, Nacewa would kick for goal. It took pressure off them as young 10s and allowed them to focus on the nuts and bolts of out half play. It was one reason why he was such a valuable player in the squad. Likewise Ramos with Toulouse/France.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'll leave it but tbh, I think you're missing the point



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    The difference is that handling skills can be improved passively through general training, whereas goalkicking is an individual skill that must be individually trained. There is only so much training time, the question is whether the benefit from spending large amounts of that time practising goalkicking outweighs the opportunity cost of the other skills that are neglected in the process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    This point is true. But the reason as to why a player may try to improve at it remains the same



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,762 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Anybody can be trained to go into their normal routine for every kick.

    It's pretty simple really. You can think about whatever you want in advance of your target but once it's time to kick you take a breath and go into your routine.

    A similar thing would be the first round of a cup competition. You tell your guys that the first round is exactly like the final. If you lose you are out. The same applies to every match including the final. It's all about training the mind.



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