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Nuclear - future for Ireland?

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    To consider nuclear we need a plan to keep the lights on for the next 20 years. And expand generation massively for decarbonisation.

    Of course it's not going to be cheap. But it'll mostly be paid for by 2050 given the shorter timescale of renewables contracts.

    Nuclear will require the same spend because we will still have to keep the lights on until it arrives. But by the time it arrived we won't need it.

    Future baseload will be 5% as the grid will be able to handle up to 95% non-synch generators. That 5% will include things like CHP, biomass, biogas, hydro including pumped storage, waste to energy , energy to fuel, hydrogen and possibly tidal and geothermal and until 250 can include reducing amounts of legacy gas.

    For the Nth time - Spinning reserve is not something nuclear can do.

    https://www.sem-o.com/publications/general-publications

    https://www.sem-o.com/sites/semo/files/2026-03/Wk14_2026_Weekly_Operational_Constraints_Update.pdf

    image.png

    To have nuclear on the grid you need to explain how you will replace 75% of the lost output within FIVE SECONDS.

    The best reactor response is half an hour , but you then have to wait at least two hours before you can change again.

    You also need to explain how you can provide backup for extended periods like scheduled outages for refuelling and maintenance, and unscheduled outages like where you didn't restart soon enough to avoid the Iodine Pit or where scheduled outages keep getting extended.

    If a grid can survive nuclear being offline for a month for refuelling then having a weather forecast a week ahead for renewables is trivial.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,040 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Or, another option. Somebody could challenge the law. We use electricity from nuclear power plants in England, and soon France also. Why is that legal but building our own power plants isn't?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Not sure. The legislation could have been a reaction to Carnsore Point and pre-dated marine interconnectors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,607 ✭✭✭✭josip




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,127 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'd imagine 8 years to build a nuclear power station, in Ireland is likely a bit optimistic.. and that's just the construction phase - you also have design it ,and do serious site investigation , put in for standard planning ect .. and run a tender process

    As well as organise financing

    I wasn't particularly adding time for legal challenges or protests .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    That's a cop-out. The current plan calls for continued large scale reliance on gas. I'd warned for years about the costs and dangers associated with this, and have been proven correct.

    People have a right to ask where this "transition fuel" is going to come from? We already sleepwalked into one major political crisis because Western Europe relied on Putler's Russia to supply us with vast quantities of your "transition fuel." Then we did the same thing again by importing it as LNG from the Middle East, because we didn't learn our lesson. As for the Germans, mentioned in a later thread, they understood that abandoning nuclear would make them more reliant on coal, and they planned accordingly. They still have more than 30GW of coal fired power capacity, and they have an actual gas reserve, unlike Ireland.

    If importing "transition fuel" from Vladimir Putin's genocidal mafia hell state didn't work, and getting from Qatar didn't work, again I ask, what is Plan C?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Yet again , how do we keep the lights on for the next 20 years ?

    I've posted many times before that if we had twice our renewables and storage and interconnectors you cloud put a 100% label on the 50% line in the System Non-Synchronous Penetration chart and see that most of the time we'd already be on the home straight.

    The problem is that we don't have enough renewables.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    The lights(or rather datacentres because use for everything else is steady) will be kept on with gas because renewables don't scale. This is the carbon free but carbon heavy future you advocate for ad infinitum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Can I ask both the nuclear and renewables advocates a question?

    For nuclear: what fuel do you want us to use between now and the commission date of an Irish nuclear plant, and what fuel do we use in the event of a shutdown?

    For Renewables: What fuel do we use to cover periods of intermittent wind/solar

    Also would either side consider deep geothermal as a significant component of that baseload? Like the facility just opened in the UK.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    It is going to be gas either way but there is a clear path to zero carbon with nuclear. In the meantime less gas should be burnt with a moratorium on further Datacentre build out until it is supplied by nuclear at home or carbon neutral electricity via connectors. I suspect nuclear from overseas will become a greater crutch as other countries move faster than Ireland



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    16 years from tender to full commercial operation for the UAE plant.

    They didn't have to overly worry about, planning regulations, legal challenges,environmental impact, protests, European working time directive, cold/wet weather affecting construction, regulations changing mid project cf UK and human rights etc.

    https://pris.iaea.org/PRIS/CountryStatistics/ReactorDetails.aspx?current=1050

    The first two full years for the first reactor had Annual Time On Line of 6763/6269 hours Which is 77% / 71%. Which means you'd need a lot of alternative power if you were depending on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,040 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,040 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    In a country where oil is probably cheaper than uranium there was likely no rush in building a nuclear facility

    The question should not be how long will it take, the question should be how much longer than a wind or solar farm will it take. How long ago were those 4 offshore wind farms announced? I think it was 4 year's ago in 2022. Still stuck at the design phase I believe



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Their reason for building it was to export more fossil fuel. (same with Iran)

    Ever minute it was late was hard currency not coming in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Good question - assuming the answer involved gas (which I do NOT believe it should) where does that gas come from?

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    If you do not believe it should be gas, then what should keep our lights on until nuclear could arrives ?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Please explain how you propose to meet peek demand using nuclear - you might as well explain spinning reserve and local voltage control too.

    And then explain how the grid infrastructure needed wouldn't allow renewables to be fully entrenched such that nuclear would have no role by the time it arrived.

    Please explain how you would secure reasonably priced fuel rods or pellets or whatever for the life of the plant - if demand goes up they get more expensive and politics might bite hard later.

    Who else in Western Europe other than Finland has increased nuclear in the last generation, and even get twice as much energy from recently added wind ? Other countries are moving faster, look at Greece or Portugal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    All you have to offer this discussion is FUD. The strategy you use is obvious but for some reason the moderation team indulge you.

    This is a real scenario which has been suffered repeatedly for the last number of years. Explain how wind turbines work during a dunkelflaute and solar panels producing diddly squat for two or three hours per day and nothing for the remainder in the middle of winter without spinning yarns about hydrogen down mineshafts and energy trading from the UK when they are under the same weather conditions. You have been leading people on for years on this forum and just waffle your way past the inarguable shortcomings of your preferred green path to nirvana.

    Please explain how the scarce wind resource and it is scarce, not abundant, will be ring-fenced for the citizens and not monopolized by multinationals through PPAs.

    It is my honest belief that you are a shameless shill for the wind energy industry and in your own petty way standing in the way of energy security in Ireland.

    A number of smaller nuclear plants allow for redundancy providing headroom for maintenance and unexpected downtime and nuclear is the very definition of base load.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    So that's a No.

    You decided not to answer the question.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Popular Mechanics article from a few days ago

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a70846059/tiny-nuclear-reactors-save-energy/

    There is no point engaging with bad faith actors like those monopolizing this thread.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    There are other ways to generate electricity than gas (e.g. coal, imports from countries producing nuclear) … so if we want to keep using gas, we really need to know where it's supposed to come from.

    This really shouldn't be a difficult question - what do we do if the Strait of Hormuz is not reopened soon?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Oh noes ! Moneypoint stopped using coal last year !!! Oh well 50,000 tonnes of oil lasts how long?

    I still haven't heard any reason to not double down on renewables.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    That is what dogmatic adherence to Green party policy gets you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Have you been in a coma since 2021?

    For one thing, they require the use of natural gas as backup. Gas specifically, as other power sources are not as flexible as certain types of gas plant, AFAIK.

    For another, those advocating continued use of gas to go with these renewables cannot actually identify where this "transition fuel" is supposed to come from. All despite repeated request for clarification.

    For another, we've already "doubled down" on renewables (and the required backup gas) and got nothing but sky high electricity costs and unimpressive CO2 reductions for our trouble.

    So again, I ask, if you need gas to compliment your expensive, unreliable, weather dependent renewables, where does it come from?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
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    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Base load will be gone forever. 5% tops and that will be handled by CHP , biomass, hydro , biogas, biomass , waste to energy and later perhaps tidal and geothermal. No role for nuclear.

    In fact to have nuclear you would need spinning reserve which sounds like a job for fossil fuel , unless you can explain how to replace 75% of a nuclear plant's output within 5 SECONDS!!! and you can't use batteries because they aren't synchronous.

    IMHO Nuclear power is fossil fuel through the back door , unless you can explain how you can do PEAKING daily and seasonal / SPINNING RESERVE - 75% in 5 seconds / BACKUP for multiple plants being offline at the same time as has happens way too often to ignore.

    How do I get people to understand that nuclear plants spend a lot of time offline. The EPRs have a refuelling outage of 50 days. Compared to that 2-3 days or even a week without some renewables is walk in the park.

    Today's EDF reactor status - https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/power-station/daily-statuses Only 5 out of 10 UK generators are at "Nominal full load" - How's that for "redundancy" ?

    Nominal full load

    Statutory outage until April 9 (from when ? )

    Nominal full load - next outage May 2026

    Nominal full load - next outage May 2026

    Raising load following refuelling and graphite inspection outage

    Nominal full load - next outage Sept 2026

    Offline for refuelling - Expected return to service date March 27 2026

    Reduced load due to gas circulator issue

    Nominal full load

    Raising load following forced outage



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Had we doubled down on renewables then every time the SNSP chart hit 50% we'd already be using no gas. Simple as.

    If you genuinely support nuclear then you need to explain how it can meet peak winter demand without using fossil fuel and your plan for Black Swan events that cause multiple plants to be offline at the same time.

    And how we keep the lights on until then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Fantasy alternative energy sources which will never materialize in volume. You want 100s of billions spent on a solution that will never scale but it has passed the green party litmus test so that is the way we are to be dragged

    Biomass from rainforest. Biogas from livestock that don't exist because they were culled. Chp when greens want over 95% recycling. Hydro banned to protect the rivers, no sites for more pumped hydro, tidal ripped apart by winter storms which stop the wind turbines too and no great geothermal resource because we are not on fault lines. Fantasy and not in tune with green policy so just false hope to keep wind and solar being the only bet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,599 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Regardless of what is posted or how often when it doesn`t suit your agenda you just ignore. So for once rather than you doing your usual can we just clear up the matter of contracts rather than this constant need to rehash.

    Do you know the difference between a mortgage contract and a index-linked goods contract ?

    We are not signing mortgage contracts for these turbines, hydrogen producing assets, batteries etc. as we will not have ownership. We are signing contracts to buy electricity at a fixed strike price that is index-linked over the period of a twenty year contract where due to the marginal pricing policy and renewables having free shot at filling the demand that we are committing to taking all they can supply at the price of gas.

    Shorter contracts are not to our benefit. They are to the benefit of the renewable companies due to the lifespan of their wind turbines etc. Wind turbines lose 16% efficiency each decade. And that is for onshore. That is 32% over a twenty contract year contract. At the very minimum offshore turbines will have fallen from a capacity factor of 42% too 28% over 20 years.

    Before you start on about extending their lifespan by maintenance. You some time back gave an example of an onshore wind farm in Scotland you believed was such an example. Turned out it wasn`t maintenance. It was the total scrapping of the existing wind farm, turbines, bases, even the road into the site, to be all replaced by new turbines, new bases and new road under a new contract price. For offshore we have seen that whatever maintenance these companies may do onshore, from the Scottish Hywind farm offshore example it will be an absolute minimum in a much harsher environment. Nuclear does not have the problem with similar capacity factor loss in it`s lifespan due to regular maintenance, and even older plants are now getting up to 20 years extension on lifespans.

    Short contracts suit only the renewable companies. For consumers it only provides uncertainty on where at least two further contracts with higher strike prices will leave the cost to them. Especially seeing the massive increase in the capital cost of wind farm costs recently, and the plan you favor will also be anything between 2 to 4 times the strike price to consumers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,599 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That synopsis is like something from the Twilight Zone.

    At their present production level the UAE has 100 years of oil reserves. Iran`s reserves are double that of the UAE.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 98,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    In total the Japanese spent twenty billion on their reprocessing/breeder reactor scheme, roughly the same as the global ITER fusion project. The Monju power plant was connected to the grid for one hour and will be fully decommissioned some time around 2047.

    I do note that you haven't even tried to explain how you would handle a situation where only 50% of nuclear reactors were at nominal full load. Seriously if you can't handle nuclear at it's worst you don't deserve it at it's best.



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