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Shannon water for Dublin

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Saabsaab, at this stage you're either being deliberately obtuse or just trolling, because the idea that this is simply “water for Dubliners” has been addressed repeatedly and is contradicted by the actual project documentation.

    This is not a Dublin pipeline, it is a national resilience project for the Eastern and Midlands region, covering multiple counties and communities, and crucially freeing up water elsewhere.

    Straight from Uisce Éireann — Water Supply Project, Eastern and Midlands Region:

    “It will provide the greater area of Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow with a resilient safe secure water and will have capacity to serve communities in Tipperary, Offaly and Westmeath along the route. It will support balanced regional development by redirecting supplies currently serving Dublin to Louth, Meath, Wicklow, Carlow and Kildare, providing regional development opportunities.”

    So immediately, this is not just Dublin. Beneficiaries include Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow directly, with communities in Tipperary, Offaly and Westmeath along the route also benefiting, and water freed up and redirected to Louth, Carlow, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow. That is a large portion of the country, and it goes further. The same publication states:

    “The project will have the capacity to address water supply need across 36 water resource zones… ensuring a sustainable supply… for up to 50% of the State's population.”

    Up to 50 percent of the population. And the idea that the water is being “taken” for Dublin ignores how interconnected infrastructure works. The project explicitly creates what they describe as a water supply spine across the country, with future offtakes for communities along the route

    “It will, for the first time, create a water supply ‘spine’ across the country with the capacity for future offtakes to supply communities along the route in Tipperary, Offaly and Westmeath.”

    So it strengthens midlands towns, allows housing growth outside Dublin, supports industry outside Dublin, improves resilience across multiple counties, and reduces dependence on a single vulnerable source.

    Which brings us to another important point. Right now:

    “Currently a single source, the River Liffey, supplies 85% of the water requirements for 1.7 million people in the Greater Dublin Area.”

    That is dangerously fragile infrastructure. If that fails, it is not just Dublin affected, it is hospitals, universities, ports, airports, government services, national businesses, and economic activity that serves the entire country.

    The capital failing is not a Dublin problem, it is a national problem.

    And then there is the population point, which often gets ignored.

    Dublin is not some separate tribe, it is full of people from Donegal, Mayo, Kerry, Clare, Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick, Tipperary, Monaghan, Tyrone, and every other county, along with people from Poland, Brazil, India, Nigeria, Spain, France, the UK, Romania, Lithuania and dozens more.

    These are not “Dubliners” in the narrow sense, they are people from all over Ireland and the world who chose to live and work in the capital, who contribute to the national economy, whose work supports businesses and services across the entire country. So when you say “water for Dubliners” you are really talking about water for half the country's workforce, water for national infrastructure, water for economic growth, water for redistribution to other counties.

    The same Uisce Éireann Water Supply Project, Eastern and Midlands Region publication describes it as:

    “A critical infrastructure project that will transform the resilience and security of water supply for the Region… necessary for the State’s social and economic growth now and for generations to come.”

    It is also worth remembering that only about 2 percent of the average flow of the Shannon is proposed to be abstracted, from the largest river in the country, while delivering resilience across 36 water zones, supporting housing, industry, and population growth across the Eastern and Midlands region.

    And finally, the cost benefit analysis shows:

    “For every €1 spent, €12.25 of benefits are delivered.”

    Which again underlines that this is a national infrastructure investment, not a local perk. So at this point, saying this is just for Dublin is not really a serious argument anymore. It ignores the geography, the redistribution, the resilience, the population, the economics, and the actual published plan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,331 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I don't know anything about your argument with the other poster and I don't want to.

    If you are seriously starting from a position of dismissing everyone who made a submission as uneducated/ unreasonable I'm not sure where to start or if it's even worth the effort.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,331 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    If you are seriously starting from a position of dismissing all submissions as unreasonable/uneducated I'm not sure that I know where to start or if it's worth bothering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I have said it before this water project is mainly for the Dublin region and its continued expansion. They say it themselves

    "The project aims to reduce Dublin’s reliance on the River Liffey and meet projected water demand increases of 34% by 2044."

    Anything else is a byproduct.

    Giving this the go ahead will fuel the growth of the Dublin region at the expense of the areas needing more development as the pressure to send development to where the water is will be less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    That's a cop out.

    You just said you read some, and now you don't know where to start?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    You must be trolling at this stage. The actual water treatment plant will be in Munster. That will be the central hub from where water will supply towns in the midlands.

    Why don't you quote the section from Irish Water that says they will supply other areas, Athlone and Mullinar too by the way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The pipeline will run across the country 170km! I'm sure Athlone has plenty of water the main idea behind it is the needs of Dublin into the future whatever anyone from Irish water says.

    This is from Ecofact experts on environmental issues.

    "The proposed Dublin Water Supply project assumes that the current unsustainable water management on the Lower River Shannon can continue. However, this is not feasible and represents a major design flaw and planning risk for the project. Both the existing ESB abstraction and the proposed Irish Water abstraction fall within the boundary of the Lower River Shannon SAC. The amount of water that would be abstracted under this new scheme is equivalent to 40% of the water that was flowing through the "Falls of Doonass" yesterday."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    So you don't want to quote any Irish Water paragraphs that you don't like, got it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,331 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    A cop out....

    I don't think so.

    The real cop out is rubbishing the other side of the argument with spurious and unsustainable slurs.

    If your case is so good there is no need to resort to such tactics.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Many on here to quote irish water ones that suit. I don't really believe what Irish Water says I do believe what they do and have done. The track record isn't good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    So you've absolutely nothing to back up your argument, thought so..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    So long as it's noted you ignore facts about the project and make up your own alternative facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,357 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    We are a small island were you can get to Dublin in 3 hrs from most places, just move the people to the water.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    https://x.com/EcofactEcology/status/1883798040974123166

    Look at above from Ecofact and Dr W O'Connor Senior Environmental Scientist. Even so I feel that won't be enough to satisfy you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Here's another 'alternative' fact irish Water reported 1,200 incidents breaching the water pollution acts last year, 7 were prosecuted. Not a great track record they seem happy to pay the fines rather to fix the issues. Yet they want to pump water across the country and won't take more than 4% of the average flow?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    That's the source of your opposition? The guy is railing against the 1935 Shannon Fisheries Act ffs which has absolutely nothing to do with the proposed pipeline.

    And again, the suggestion that the pipeline is going to abstract 40% of the old river flow is completely false.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,331 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You're just continuing to stand over your original claim that all the submissions are uneducated/unreasonable.

    Tell me, what's to discuss ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 750 ✭✭✭Mr.CoolGuy


    Dubliners when they want to justify massive proportions of state investment: "90 billion % of the population lives in the GDA."

    Dubliners on this thread: "Actually the pipeline is for the massive, alien landscapes of Meath and Offaly, lightyears from our small city. Nothing to do with tiny Dublin at all"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Seeing as you're incapable of providing a single example to counteract my claim precisely nothing.

    Before you go disagreeing with posters it's a good idea to have some reason for doing so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Who said it was nothing to do with Dublin? Can you show me on the thread where people said that?

    Of course Dublin benefits. Nobody is denying that. Dublin is the capital, the largest population centre, and a huge part of the country's economy. It would be absurd if Dublin didn’t benefit from a major national water project. Do you think it should stop outside Dublin just for spite and bitterness, of course not.

    But the point, which keeps getting ignored, is that this is not just a Dublin project.

    The pipeline runs through and supports Meath, Kildare, Offaly, Westmeath, Laois and parts of north Tipperary, along with the Midlands towns that have struggled with supply constraints for years. These are places that can’t expand housing, industry, or services because their water systems are already at capacity.

    This is about:
    More housing in commuter counties
    More industry in the Midlands
    More resilience for towns currently at risk of shortages
    Less reliance on the Liffey and vulnerable eastern sources
    A national water grid instead of isolated regional systems

    And there’s another reality people conveniently ignore. Dublin isn’t some sealed off entity populated only by "Dubliners". It's full of people from every county in Ireland. Mayo, Donegal, Kerry, Clare, Offaly, Meath, you name it. People who moved for work, education, or opportunity. When Dublin’s infrastructure improves, those people benefit too. So do their employers, their families, and the wider economy.

    So yes, Dublin benefits. So does half the eastern and midlands region. And the country benefits from a more secure water supply overall.

    Pretending it's either "Dublin only" or "nothing to do with Dublin" is just creating a false argument. It’s a national infrastructure project with Dublin as one of the major beneficiaries, not the sole one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    I follow him on other social media. I like him but he has a serious axe to grind with the ESB, the Act and diversion of water to the headrace.

    If you actually read and absorbed any fact in this thread, never mind the last one you got banned from, you would know that has nothing to do with the water project 90-ish percent of the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It has - further water taken at low flow times what does that lead to?

    Algal Blooms

    Further Fish kills

    Shortages further down

    Increase in treatments

    At least if/when this is brought to the courts it is likely to fail even after all the costs. Again I don't believe irish water and their claims of max 4% flow taken.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Some words about the folly of this idea from someone who should know.

    "according to local councillor Phyll Bugler, who says that the entire social fabric of Ballina will be destroyed if the Water Supply Project Eastern and Midlands Region is granted planning permission.

    The pipeline will see a 170km pipe installed to pump 330million litres of water a day from the Parteen Basin to Dublin, and will cost the taxpayer an estimated €10billion.

    Speaking to the Irish Independent, Cllr Bugler, said the pipeline could damage tourism and the ecology of Lough Derg, with serious consequences for the town’s social fabric.

    https://www.independent.ie/editorial/web/newsletter/qs/v3/tipperary.html There was an error displaying this embed.

    "I love our beautiful Lough Derg, and I certainly don’t want to see any damage to the ecology, to the fish life, the wildlife, and to the whole tourism and social fabric of Lough Derg.

    "If the pipeline goes ahead, eight EU directives will be breached, including the water framework directive, the habitats directive, the birds directive and the environmental directive. This proposal will threaten critical habitats and protected species including pollen, eel, salmon, lamprey, trout, as well as the habitats of endangered water birds, such as the curlew,” Cllr Bugler said. A major flaw in the plan, according to Cllr Bugler and the River Shannon Protection Alliance, which she is a part of, is that Uisce Éireann have not considered low flow periods, when the levels of water in the river are lower than usual.

    Cllr Bugler says that the level of water taken from the river during these low flow periods will see the river practically drained.

    She claimed that during periods of low flow, the proportion of water taken from the river could rise dramatically.

    "That average flow that Uisce Éireann are saying doesn’t make sense because we can have dry periods for the months of April, May, June, July, August and September, and research carried out by Maynooth University has shown that we in the Mid West are going to experience more drought periods during the summer months, whereas Dublin, because the jet stream has moved, is going to get more wetter periods,” she said.

    "If there’s less flow coming down the river, then the abstraction is extremely high, the rate of abstraction is not the 2pc touted by Uisce Éireann, it’s 38pc to 40pc of the river,” Cllr Bugler added."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    This is simply proof you have not read or absorbed any of the information on this thread about Lough Derg and the parteen weir gates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Every single bit of that has been shown to be complete BS in this very thread. A fact that you continually proceed to ignore.

    You say you don't believe a word a state body says but you're happy to lap up this nonsense which doesn't contain a shred of research or evidence.

    She's a member of the SWPA, enough said!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,150 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Dismiss everything even if the Cllr. is also a Dr of Organic Chemistry not exactly uneducated and knoiws what they are talking about.

    This State body has been shown to be in breach of many laws and taken to the courts where it has lost its case or paid the fines without dispute! What they claim should be challenged and not taken at face value as the final word on this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,034 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    What I can't get over is why they don't build the extraction point further downriver. Down near the mouth of the river would surely cause the least amount of ecological issues and keep everybody happy



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    The lake acts as reservoir so is a giant holding tank, which is always a much better location to take from versus the passing water downstream.

    Further down the Shannon anywhere near the coast the water would contain salt so not a good place to take from at all.



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