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Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

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Comments

  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,927 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Those people weren't even refused planning, the application was invalidated because, as you say, it looked like a child put it together.

    When they actually did the application properly they were granted it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,481 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The media here are absolutely awful at vetting sob stories. And it never blows up in their faces properly.

    People with housing offers or actual council houses being reported as sleeping in their cars, repeatedly, is one particular thing they keep falling for



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭greenbin2


    The news papers are like Ryan Tubridy doing the toy show, they love a sob story $$$$



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    That Meath house, are walls single leaf cavity blocks? Would this be good practice? I can’t see much insulation about either.
    Looks to me like a house of cards in every sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Who can forget year wan in Tallaght Garda Station, with the kids 'asleep' on the seats in their school uniforms in the middle of August.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,481 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    1970s standard. Not 2006. Looks to be basic insulated plasterboard inside maybe.

    I suspect that place took 10,000 litres of kero a winter to keep warm



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,481 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    And not one professional journo questioning the school uhiforms in the school holidays



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    Or more recently the poor hardworking Irishman detained in the States.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That doesn't make sense in this context though. Planners arriving to document unauthorised development, is confirmatino that it is unauthorised.
    The guy in Sutton is claiming that the planners told him it was exempt development, when they were there to inspect. Exempt development doesn't trigger an inspection, even further the council isn't even alerted that it's happening. He's simply waffling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,800 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    At least those cases tried to go for sympathy. This crowd just seems to have decided planning permission is for common folk lets build anyway.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Alternatively, just abolish the retention process so anything that's built must have permission and its foundations must be inspected to ensure they are the size and position stated in the application.

    This isn't the solution that you think it. Anything that is built requiring planning IS supposed to be have permission currently.
    Retention isn't pathway that people can openly choose. It's a means to legalise unauthorised development.

    Inspection foundations is no going to solve much. The Murray's house would have still been built, the guy who builds hight, still builds higher, the "shed" is still turned into a flat etc.

    On that latter point, I am aware of a neighbour dispute where foundations over sail the boundary wall, where they were submitted to be set back as per wishes of the neighbour. This is now a full on boundary dispute between both with the council washing their hands of it. Its up to the affected neighbour to take a court case at considerable cost, which they don't have.

    That makes perfect sense. It has nothing to do with planning or the council.
    Expecting planning dept's to settle civil property disputes is a bit odd. You wouldn't do that in any other property dispute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


     "Exempt development doesn't trigger an inspection, even further the council isn't even alerted that it's happening."

    Complaints from members of the public would alert the planners and a few complaints might trigger an inspection. Well it should if they were doing thier job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Agreed. Coupled with the fact he sought a Section 5 declaration for it over 10 years before building it and was told it was not exempted development. So he had official paperwork from the Council telling him it required planning (or a similar smaller design, the drawings for it aren't online from what I remember). Years later, unnamed persons from the Council coming to the site and verbally telling him it was fine and there's no record of same? Nah.

    Even if it was flagged that there was an unauthorised development and someone from the council came out once or twice to take photos for the record/enforcement proceedings, they never would have told him it was fine (not to mention it would have already been built by that stage). They would have said you need to apply for retention permission, or demolish the structure. This is evident from the fact the Council did then commence with enforcement proceedings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    A extremely nimby neighbour could pester council to call around about a genuinely exempt development, but that was hardly the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    What I mean by inspecting foundations is to confirm their position on the site and the size (m²).

    In the example I referred to, had the foundations been dug where they were on the drawings, and inspected to ensure they were, there would be no problem/no boundary issues. Not set back from the boundary and undersailing is non-compliant with permission received, and should be a council issue. Again, if they were inspected and they then made them bigger or altered them, it would be easy to issue enforcement proceedings. The light touch regulation or almost self-certification leads to examples like I quoted. I would not expect the council to become involved in routine boundary disputes, but where one arrises following an approved build, and with the role to approve/regulate a s enforce planning, they should be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,717 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Irish people can be absolutely bonkers about stuff like this. Look at the amount of local support there was (and still is, tbh) for Sean Quinn. It's insane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Wow the house that sprung up incredibly quickly, without planning, also decided to cut corners in construction quality and standards. I for one am shocked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Well it would have been obvious fairly early on that this was not an exempt developement.

    17 objections, probably half the Burrow road residents objected, the other half probably had good reason not to object.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Planning permission doesn't includes the size or of foundations. Nor do the area of foundations equal the area of the building.

    Boundary disputes are a civil matter not a planning matter. It's entirely possible, and even common, to build a wall right up or even centre on a boundary - with a foundation that over sails the boundary, it's not an obstruction to planning, it simply needs to be agreed between parties. It's not for the council to check that neighbours have spoken to each other.

    I understand, if the case you mention, it was build in a different location to the plans. A inspection would have caught that, but it's kind of a niche cases.
    And even then its not to say the new location is fundamental objectionable. Council would only have to grant retention (if even required) and it falls back to being purely a civil matter.

    It would be great if planning, or some other process could check all of these things. But there would obviously be costs associated



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    Who actually built the house? Shouldn't they be punished for building without planning permission?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The builders have zero liability in this case. Whatever they built needed to be in compliance with building regulations, that's where their liability and responsibility lies (probably going to be hard to prove if they didn't build something in compliance with building regulations at this stage, given that the house is now in more pieces than it took to build it). Even an architect or engineer could have drawn and specified the works, but they have no liability for ensuring it complies with planning unless they were actually certifying the works for compliance with planning regulations.

    The client is wholly responsible for this as they engaged the builders to build something they did not have planning permission for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    So after all that, you agree with the example that I posted. There was no agreement between the parties on undersailing foundation and the plans submitted had the extension wall 300mm from the boundary, as per the wishes of the the neighbour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭supereurope


    I'm really glad to see your post. I've only come to this story late, but I've read the articles in the Irish Times as well, and they all came across as incredible sympathetic to the Murrays - "How their dream home became a nightmare" - and so on. As I was reading them, I thought I was missing something, because it didn't make sense why the IT seemed to be very much on their side. I'm no expert on planning, but my understanding is: the Murrays were denied planning permission for a house, but went ahead and built it anyway, and a bigger house too. They are not the victims in this. I'm pleased I'm not the only baffled by the IT taking the Murray's side.

    And by the way, if anyone from the IT is reading this, the Murray's dream home only became a nightmare because they made it one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    And the cancer of social media comments supports them too, suggesting that anyone should be allowed build on their land. I try to keep out of that stuff but was tempted to reply "ok, so how would you feel if I were your neighbour and built a skyscraper in my back garden?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    Maybe that's something that should be looked at for the future.

    It would make sense to me that a contractor would have to see the planning permission before starting work, and if they do work without it, they should also be in trouble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    You'd have a hard time finding a builder to take on any such work if that were the case, without a huge price increase at least. There can be small changes made to designs between planning and construction, usually down to required construction details, changes in regulations (planning is granted for 5 years, so someone building say 4 years after getting planning might have to make changes to accommodate changes to building regulations), small design changes which wouldn't affect planning etc. Builder then has to choose between building what was granted planning (which may not be in full compliance with building regulations), or building in compliance with building regulations (where there may be slight differences to what was granted planning). If the builders are suddenly taking on responsibility for that, prices would skyrocket. Such judgement calls and changes can be determined and certified by architects etc who are certifying and managing such works/changes, but not by builders.

    You would also then be left in a common position where if there are costs associated with non-compliance (such as costs of demolition, council court costs and penalties for unauthorised development), the Council would simply sue everyone, and it's typically the last man standing who ends up having to pay. Much easier for clients to say they can't pay whatever fines, demolition costs etc are applied, and it ends up then being the builder who is left standing and such costs being claimed off their insurance or simply driving them out of business.

    Typically, it's all just taken care of through mortgage requirements, which would require a valid planning application for the works, and an architect/engineer/surveyor to certify that the works once completed are in compliance with planning permission (and building regulations). In this case, the Murrays had enough money to fund the entire build themselves with no mortgage.

    Full responsibility should lie with the owners. In this case, the Murrays are the last man standing because they are the only ones who can be fined or penalised for building without planning permission. It's solely on them for authorising, arranging and paying for the works. Even if they can't (or won't) pay, they're still the only ones who can be chased for the costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭Caquas


    How much should the builder charge for the cost of checking the planning?

    And how much extra Insurance will they need against liability if they missed something that wasn’t in the planning permission?

    All costs to honest people trying to build anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    No I didn’t agree. I literally explained that a boundary dispute is not a planning matter.

    Whether they had an agreement or not is between them, nothing to do with planning or council.
    Leaving 300mm to boundary or not is unlikely to be materially significant for an extension. No issue building right up to the boundary.
    The foundation issue is a civil matter, Council are right to wash their hands of it. They've enough actual planning matters to enforce.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    The Murrays built the house.
    Whether directly ot indirectly doesn't change their responsibility.

    Definitely not. The contractor acts on the owners instruction. Same who ever drew up the plans (though I suspect that was Mr Murrary)
    Allowing the contractor to be responsible means the owners could blame the contractor for not endure plannning was in place.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,535 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    Why would it need to cost money. Send a copy of planning permission to the builder. Maybe there's a number on it. The builder verifies the number with the council. All could be done in two minutes.

    Could also protect builders against dishonest people who are more likely to not pay them down the line.

    There should be a system in which property owner, council, and builder are all linked in to.



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