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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,832 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Scrum was really only an issue in the first two games, was pretty even after. Also worth noting that I think Italy Scotland was the only wet game?

    Every other game was decided through fast attacking play and good handling. Weather played a large part in it being such a memorable 6N.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,303 ✭✭✭TRC10


    It’s true that our scrum didn’t cost us this championship. But that shouldn’t be a reason to continue neglecting it. It’s still poor. And we’re playing a very dangerous game if we think we can keep getting by without a scrum. We saw in the WC 1/4 final and in November how costly a weak scrum can be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Iirc, Munster had two scrum penalty tries awarded against them in a H/Cup game away to Leicester and still won the game.

    Ireland have shown you can get by without a dominant scrum but we've seen SA humiliate us too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,232 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    OK - dont know a huge about rugby compared to some of you chaps, but it strikes me that Beirne is by a long distance our most important player. I'd also say I dont ever remember O'Connell being as good as Beirne has been the past few years. He actually seems a bit under-rated to me, in that I'd have him up there as one of our top three or four players in the professional era. Am I wrong?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭50HX




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It sounds hyperbolic initially, but I think he's probably close to that level realistically.

    I'd have him as a nailed on starter on an Irish XV of the pro era.

    It's hard ranking and comparing players who played different positions, but my Irish team of the pro era would be as follows:

    (15-9, 1-8):

    Rob Kearney, Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll, Bundee Aki, James Lowe, Jonathan Sexton, Conor Murray, Cian Healy, Dan Sheehan, Tadhg Furlong, Tadhg Beirne, Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip

    Reps: Keith Wood, Andrew Porter, John Hayes, James Ryan, David Wallace, Jamison Gibson Park, Ronan O'Gara, Gordon d'Arcy

    Very unfortunate to miss out: Hugo Keenan, Keith Earls, Robbie Henshaw, Denis Hickie, Jerry Flannery, Rory Best, Mike Ross, Peter O'Mahony, Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier

    I could still see Keenan & Doris supplanting Kearney & Heaslip in time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Tommybojangles


    Nice team but JVDF sneaks in for me. Possibly with O Brien to 6 and ferris dropping out. Hard argue with anything else



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, I wrestled with exactly that change. I think Ferris' pure ability would have him in there for me, but his achievements don't stack up with JVDF's obviously.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,950 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Beirne will go down as one of Irelands greatest ever Forwards and players. Still vitally important.

    Irelands most important player "by a long distance" is JGP

    The gap between JGP and the rest is like the Great Rift Valley

    The gap between Beirne and the rest is like Springfield Gorge

    Untitled Image


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    good selection although having JGP on the bench really makes a bit of a semi mockery of it as he is currently by some distance our most important and right up there in recent history with O’Driscoll, Peter O’Mahony, Sexton and Paul O’Connell



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,975 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Keenan and Doris are already starters in that team for me and JGP by miles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I wouldn't have a huge issue with Keenan and Doris - I think each of them are fundamentally better players than the guys I picked (Kearney & Heaslip), but went for who I went for based on the totality of their achievements. As I said, I'd be fairly confident that a few years from now it won't be a debate.

    On the 9 position, as phenomenal as JGP has been the past couple of years, it's very hard to discount just how good Conor Murray was for a really long time. Around the time of the 2017 Lions tour I think there was a strong argument he was right up there with Aaron Smith as the best 9 in the world. He was an incredible player for a very long time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,866 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Murray also, like Cian Healy, returned to have a significant international career after an awful injury and subsequent loss of form, which wins you a lot of points in my book.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,623 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    15. Keenan

    14. Fitzgerald

    13. BOD

    12. Henshaw

    11. Hickie

    10. Sexton

    9. JGP

    8. Doris

    7. SOB

    6. Conan

    5. Beirne

    4. Ryan

    3. Furlong

    2. Wood

    1. Healy

    I fudged having Fitzgerald at 14, not my fault almost all of our best wingers played at 11. Expecting to be flamed for picking him over Bowe, but I think he's one of the most talented players ever. Should've been a 12.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Jesus I didn't see Luke Fitz getting a pick; I don't think his mother would attempt to put him in this team.

    He had all the talent to be in this company, but (largely due to injuries), I don't think he came close to delivering on it. His peak season in 2009, as a 21-year-old - really showed how good he could have been. He won a European Cup, a Grand Slam and was a test starting winger for the Lions that year, but I still can't overlook the next 7 years or so when assessing him.

    I'd have Tommy Bowe as pretty locked in for this team. He's very underrated IMO for how good he was and what he delivered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,623 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Yea, I fully expect the heat for that pick. I think he was flat out a better player than Bowe. I'd have Hansen ahead of Bowe too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Tommybojangles


    JGP v Murray is definitely a discussion but let's not disrespect either by saying it's "by miles". Murray imo was neck and neck with Smith for best 9 in the world and JGP is second only to Dupont who is once in a generation player, not to mind scrum half. Both incredible players we are lucky to ahve and lets not let recencey bias creep in. I'd have Murray by 1%.

    I think outside of O Driscoll (beside he was Godly, not a dig at ringrose) the gap between Tommy Bowe and the next best in the 14 shirt may be the biggest on the entire team, he walks in surely. PProbably Furlong to Hayes/ Ross as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Tommybojangles


    How long before someone picks ROG? 🤣 Surprised it hasn't happened already for the drama



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    Surely Simon Geoghgan is in with a shout for the wing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭big-al


    Bowe was the best winger in Europe between 2009-2014. One of the Lions star test players on the 09-14tours.


    Fitzgerald couldn’t lace his boots as a winger



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I think I mentioned from the outset I was doing it on pro era, and he earned his last cap in 1996.

    I've seen the highlights of him and his exceptional pace etc, but didn't see enough of him to really have a view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,292 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    it wouild be easier to keep these things to the leinster thread, becasue there is no changing minds here, so why bother.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,623 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    For me, Fitzgerald was a far more complete player. Could do everything. Bowe was a very fine player and a great finisher. If I'm picking a Space Jam team, I'm taking Fitzgerald every time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭50HX


    Nice bit of fun to have.

    As always we were blessed in the back row.

    Sean o b & david wallace are certs for me.

    I find it hard to leave out Earls...second in the try scoring record behind BOD.

    Its hard to pick even in the pro era as the game keeps evolving



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,314 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, back row is really tough to pick.

    12 is a tough one too - think you could make an argument for any one of Bundee, Robbie Henshaw or Gordon d'Arcy. All three had peaks where they were excellent. If McCloskey had another couple of seasons like the Championship he just had, he'd be right in there too.

    I found second row tough enough - I settled very quickly on POC and Beirne, but then debated for a while for the bench option. James Ryan is worth it for me - he was invaluable in 2 Grand Slam campaigns (played every minute in 2023 and should have been nominated for player of the tournament IMO), Players' Player of the Year in 2019, etc. He hasn't been as consistent as POC or Beirne but I still think he deserves to be in here.

    After him? Donncha O'Callaghan and Devin Toner had great careers, but struggle to see them ousting Ryan. Iain Henderson, despite going on two Lions' tours never really had a firm grip on the shirt for me. I'd have Donnacha Ryan ahead of Henderson, and would probably also have Malcolm O'Kelly - also a two time Lion a better shout (92 Ireland caps), but I'd still have both behind James Ryan.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Except score…

    His strike rate for a winger is pretty poor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,623 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    That's a fair criticism, no arguments there. He was better for Leinster in that respect. I think he could've been an all time great 12, if he'd been able to stay healthy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46 inbloom427


    Fitzgerald in there is wild 😝



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I feel like that argument could be made for a number of players. For whatever reason in Irish rugby it seems the glamour very much goes 10>15>13>wingers>12 and no one seems to want to be put into the 12 jersey ahead of other options.

    The less said about Fitzgerald's spell at 15 the better. He certainly had no shortage of talent but I don't think he ever put it together on the international stage consistently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭big-al


    Fitzgerald couldn’t score tries.


    Bowe was a significantly better player, his ability to pick and time a line in midfield was phenomenal.



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