Waterford - Limerick

When the new Plunkett station in Waterford opens in 2027 it will have a more convenient location to the city and also be part of the transport hub. Do people think the usage especially on this line will increase?

Could there be more benefit in changing the scope of this line?

Even with improvements and additional frequencies is Limerick - Waterford going to generate demand?

If a new platform was to be constructed at Limerick Jtc surely they look at putting a set of points to connect the Waterford line onto the mainline.

One thing discussed in the AISRR was that a direct curve at LJ should be created to allow for better direct Waterford-Cork services. In that way I do think it is suggesting a bit of a change of scope, changing it from a Waterford-LJ "shuttle" that serves medium size towns along the way, to being a proper IC corridor, just not one based from Dublin.

About the demand of the line, keep in mind that this line will be the primary connection to three other cities: Galway, Limerick, and Cork. Each one by itself maybe wouldn't be too high of a demand, but combined it could generate a good amount of journeys.

Rather than Clonmel been a midpoint, could it be better served as the destination?

To be honest, there are probably better ways to use the line, mainly as IC corridor for Waterford to Cork, Limerick, and Galway. That is much more likely to generate a higher demand purely by numbers.

My opinion on this is that services like this don't really make that much sense, or at least in the way you are proposing. It is both dropping an important connection (Clonmel-Waterford) while also tyring to cater to a journey with minimal demand.

A much more feasible service pattern would be Dublin-Waterford via JL and Clonmel, as it would allow for users on the line to have both connection to Waterford and Dublin.

That said I am not really a fan of that. I think it makes more sense to focus on Waterford-Cork as that I believe that is where the demand and opportunity for growth will be. Also by the time the needed fleet and infrastructure would be in place, there is likely to be more frequent services on the Cork mainline which would make an interchange for Dublin much easier.

Surely line speed improvements could deliver a 35-40min Clonmel to Waterford commuter service. 1 set would be enough to deliver a bi-hourly service. Should the South Wexford line reopen it could continue onto Wexford rather than terminating in Waterford.

At the moment the Waterford-LJ is painfully slow, so it could actually be more then that. Services are averaging 50km/h over the 88km line for a ~1:45 time. For Waterford-Clonmel it is a bit better at about 55km/h average over 44km for a time a bit under 50 minutes.

I can't seem to find what the target average speed for these lines was in the AISRR, but I believe it was 80km/h (top speeds of 120). At 80km/h average the time would become ~1:05 for Waterford-LJ and a little under 35 minutes for Waterford-Clonmel. That said the improvements needed wont be easy, mainly including closing a lot of LCs(there are a lot of bad quality LCs on the lines) and giving it a proper signalling system like ETCS. However, once these are in place and the line speed is 120km/h, I would hope further increases to 145 or 160 would be much easier if the demand shows it self.

As for the south Wexford Line, the plan there is to reopen it and divert Wexford-Dublin services to Heuston via Waterford. On paper it sounds a bit crazy but the alignment is just so much better that it saves a good bit of time (higher running speeds, twin-tracking, four-tracking, etc).

I see the point you are trying to make, especially with the comparison to Nenagh. But ultimately the difference is that Waterford-Limerick Jnc does form a core IC corridor for Waterford. It is the primary connection to Cork, Limerick, and Galway. Additionally, I think you are putting a lot more on Clonmel than it will ever have. I agree that a commuter/regional service to Waterford has a lot of potential. But as for the Dublin-Clonmel part? It's really just not that big of a town. A lot of the demand for the line is going to come from people trying to get to/from Waterford.

Dublin - Waterford via Limerick Jtc, sounds like another Nenagh. I doubt they'll run non stop to Limerick Jct. Serve the people its targeted towards. Continuing onwards to Waterford is 90mins of just running a train to Waterford and back for the sake of it. Turn it around and get it back into service. Let a commuter service join the dots and more frequent inter city services.

Well, yes but that was also one of the points I was trying to make. Dublin-Waterford Via LJ doesnt really make sense for various reasons.

But also the point of continuing on to Waterford would be to help cater for those other connections from Limerick and Cork. Because it really goes back to Clonmel just not being big enough to create enough demand by itself for services from Dublin.

For me, the scope should be on Clonmel. A Dublin - Clonmel IC service simplifies the operation. The connections remain in Limerick Jct.

Even if it does simplify the operation, it creates problem of connectivity. Cork-Waterford or Limerick-Waterford become 3 service journeys and you are loosing some of the connectivity from Waterford to Cahir and Tip Town. LJ is both on track and better suited to becoming a major interchange in the future. A big part of which is because it allows most journies to only need a single connnection.

However, in practice I don't think it will simplify operations. Because there are more connection to account for, it is going to put more timetabling constraints onto the network, and potentially leave less room for error, which can have knock-on effects.

Waterford, should be core focus of the regional. Rather than trying to connect to other regional cities they should be focusing on bringing people into Waterford. Personally, I think Waterford would be better focusing on connectivity to New Ross than Cork. A more robust and frequent commuter network between Waterford and Clonmel, Kilkenny, New Ross and Wexford would be more wise investment and approach imo.

I agree that Waterford needs a much better focus on regional railway connectivity. I think it is really well positioned for its own regional railway network with the number of medium or large towns surrounding it: Clonmel, Dungarvan, Tramore, Kilkenny, and Wexford. However, the IC connections are still very important and especially with Cork and Waterford there is a significant demand between them (even if this is more because Cork is our second largest City) and it is growing. There is a reason why the AISRR recommended the direct curve at LJ and direct Cork-Waterford services.

I think your underestimating Clonmel. Its by no means a small town that couldn't generate demand. Clonmel is bigger than Thurles, Longford, Gorey, Wexford, its even more populated than Westport and Castlebar combined and close to Sligo and many others. Its not just Clonmel, Cahir and Tipp Town as well, your talking 25k+ between them towns. It must be one of the largest rail connected towns in Ireland without a direct service to Dublin.

The line is by no means an IC service, its nothing more than a regional branch. Its purpose has always been connections, not only with rail services but ferries in the past. Its had many of decades at this stage in its current format and its hard to see were the value is in maintaining that type of service. Im not suggesting that the connections should be eliminated but the primary focus should shift.

Maybe its more a marketing ply but branded it the Clonmel line or service gives it a whole new outlook. Its making it a destination and giving the line its own local purpose. It can still do the job it currently does but just under a different disguise or context. Its not as though there is no demand between Dublin and Clonmel as there numerous of bus services each day.

Obviously a commuter service would connect with a Clonmel train. I don't have daily ridership numbers but the fact is, currently, nobody is using this service as a means of commuting between the regional cities on a daily basis. Look at the current timetable, its a mess. A 7:20am departure from Waterford is giving arrival times to Limerick after 10am, Cork and Dublin after 10:30 and Galway at 16:15. Whereas, a 7:20am departure from Clonmel would offer a 9:30am(ish) arrival into Dublin.

Dublin is the biggest city. A service operating to/from the first can provide reasonable connections to the second, third, forth and fifth biggest via Limerick Jtc.

Looking at it from point of maximising network capacity and removing more intermediate stops from Cork services, Clonmel and Limerick direct can complement Cork North of Limerick Jct while a Cork - Limerick direct can fill the southern half. Don't forget about Tralee and Cork local services coming online as well.

Again, these ALSRR are futuristic plans, im talking of short term alternatives that don't require 100s of millions of investments.

Tramore, Dungarven not going to happen. If Dungarven was a possibility then that would be your Waterford - Cork route.

just to clear something up.
there are no plans to reopen the south wexford line and divert wexford-dublin services via waterford, it was simply something suggested in the all ireland rail review and nothing more.

I agree with the above posts. I was very surprised with the population of Clonmel. I think the line Waterford(hopefully in future to Rosslare)-Limerick to have a future has to be all things to all men.

What I mean by this speed and junction upgrades need to be provided that there can be a service or potential for a reasonably frequent service(2 hourly initially to arrive before 9 to facilitate business travel etc);

1:Rosslare to Galway(with a curve into LJ from the south to avoid reversal and provide connections to Cork-Dublin mainline) serving as a commuter and intercity service for the towns and cities along the route. I'd imagine this would provide tourism connections to from Rosslare to access the rest of the country.

2:Wexford(maybe even Enniscorthy) to Cork(via a direct curve south of Limerick Junction, serving as a commuter and intercity service for the towns and cities along the route and offering interchanges with other services.

3:Increased freight services along the line especially with future opening of Galway to Claremorris. Some of these intermodal service will imagine continue onto Rosslare in line with future freight terminal. Possibly with planned future growth in freight services new routes good possibly open up say Kerry to Rosslare.

This could all be achieved over say a five year plan to continually work on line speed improvements, LC removals etc. Doesn't seem to out of reach, greatly enhancing connectivity along this route and increasing its viability and increasing its cost benefit analysis, especially in the light of future improvements and frequency on Waterford-Dublin and Cork-Dublin lines.

I think its safe to say, the days of tourists arriving into Rosslare on foot are long gone.

A platform on the Waterford line eliminates the need of any newly constructed curves and will be a lot cheaper to construct.

Again, a lot of this is futuristic talk requiring the South Wexford line to be reopened. The focus should be on what's already there.

There is a big difference between asking for €100s million euro in funding to upgrade a regional shuttle line compared to say €50 for a platform and some track upgrades to remove speed restrictions.

They relayed sections of the line not so long ago with secondhand track from Cork upgrades. I'm not sure if the whole line was completed but if crossings and problem areas could be improved lines speeds can increase or become more consistent.

I think your underestimating Clonmel. Its by no means a small town that couldn't generate demand. Clonmel is bigger than Thurles, Longford, Gorey, Wexford, its even more populated than Westport and Castlebar combined and close to Sligo and many others. Its not just Clonmel, Cahir and Tipp Town as well, your talking 25k+ between them towns. It must be one of the largest rail connected towns in Ireland without a direct service to Dublin.

Those examples don't really work as well as you think they do.

Thurles is just an intermadiate stop on core IC services. Longford and Gorey services are there because of capacity issues on their respective lines, they are shorter services to relieve pressure from the full Sligo and Wexford services. Those examples also don't really work because they are serving a number of very large towns along the way. I know you suggest having the Clonmel service act as the stopping service to allow Cork services to run faster, but that is not saving all that much time in the grand scheme of things, meaning its not really freeing up that many resources.

As for Wexford, Sligo, and Westport, a big part of that is the gradual build up of population along the way. Especially for Sligo and Wesport.

@OisinCooke makes a lot of good points about other problems with direct services too.

But also to repeat what they say, there is just a lot of pressure on always having direct services, which I do think we need to shift away from. In fact we are going to have to in a few cases because it wreaks havoc on capacity (this is why the Wexford-Wicklow/Greystones shuttles were proposed).

It must be one of the largest rail connected towns in Ireland without a direct service to Dublin.

Specifically on this point. While many of the towns you have mentioned do technically have direct services, even if just once day. There is actually one larger town that has no direct services to Dublin: Ennis. I think you can draw a lot of similarities based on what you said, and despite that it still has no direct service. I have seen a few discussions about direct Dublin-Ennis via Limerick, with some qoutes on the lines of "putting Ennis on the [Dublin] IC network." A lot of similar points come up, but in the end it all somewhat boils down to there being better ways to serve the town then (in that case) extending an IC service.

Again, these ALSRR are futuristic plans, im talking of short term alternatives that don't require 100s of millions of investments.

Yes some of them are but the Cork-Waterford curve at LJ isnt. Eitherway, whether its direct sevices to Cork or Dublin, a new curve is needed.