Aye, tyranny of size.
We're a small country inevitably reliant on "golden generations". For all sports that means the sheer unlikely coincidence of having a core of quality players at the one time. Soccer has gone through a long dreadful period after some years of success. Talent just wasn't there. Rugby will go through the same lull. We don't have the population (also huge competition for the talent there is between sports which sets us apart from New Zealand, for example) to sustain decades of success in anything.
On the upside it's the leaner times that leads to the excitement when things are on the up again.
We are heading into a leaner time for the national side but it will turn again.
yeah - its very striking how many of the Ireland squad have gone to private schools in Dublin.
Its an incredible nursery - but its also a playing pool that ignores 90% of the population.
I had a quick look - there are circa 27'000 kids in private schools in Ireland. Lets assume 15'000 of those are boys, and assume 10'000 of those attend schools in Dublin/ Kildare.
Thats where (at a guess) 60%/70% of our national team comes from; but its only about 5% of the population of secondary school boys in Ireland. So a huge part of the population is not feeding into the national team in a big way.
It's not that simple and "golden generation" plays down the amount of intelligent work and decisions that went into teams like Irish rugby and Limerick hurling. Equally it's massively forgiving of the sht shows that are Irish soccer and Welsh rugby.
Behind almost every golden generation or massive collapse is a story of genius administrators or incompetent and or corrupt ones.
Thats mad.
Somehow this needs to be corrected and the pool extended.
I do think that money plays a big part. at a young age the facilities and training and at an older age we are missing out on kids that mature later so dont get picked up at a young age. There isn't the space in the Munster academy for example. Take young Carney staring on the u20's he is playing with cashel as there wasn't space for him in the Munster academy. Hurling is so much better at big squads and keeping kids
By my reckoning come tomorrow only Doris, McCloskey and Osborne will have started all 5 games. That has to be unheard of for Ireland in the pro era.
I saw Ireland for the first time in 1957 v. France when I was 8. Ireland won but I can't recall the score. Then against England we lost and I know we lost and didn't score. My main memory is of a small boy being swept along by hordes of huge adults. I remember that game v Australia in '67 as if it was yesterday. First of all it was utterly freezing cold. The game was great though and only 3 points for a try then. Mike Gibson destroyed them in attack and defence. Oh for a new version. No one, not even the great BOD comes near. All teams evolve, decline, fall, rise again. The last 20 years or more have been truly great for Ireland rugby as a team and that is largely on the backs of firstly a fine Munster side followed by the Leinster talent factory. It will have fallow periods and fertile periods, Munster will rise again. Ulster seems to be on the up and Connacht have a great coach and a new range of talent. We are not capable of maintaining 2022 levels of player performances endlessly but we can still be competitive.
M.c.h. Gibson.....agree with above. G.O.A.T.
Ringrose too, but great point.
Problem expanding playing pool size is rugby is perceived as a dangerous sport and many parents do not want their children to play it. I could see in the not too distant future a lack of players all over the world. Concussion is going to be a huge deterrent. Also it seems players are injured a huge proportion of the time in general.
Hurling and Gaelic football don’t have that reputation so unlikely players will switch to rugby.
Funny that when Munster were at their peak and Limerick hurling was shte local mothers in affluet parts of the city thought hurling was too dangerous for the children which has suddenly not become a problem out in Monaleen or on the Ennis Rd.
I also don't see how being dangerous is the reason why rugby still has the demographic imbalance it always had which is what the post you replied to is talking about.
Well said.
Cameron Michael Henderson Gibson is still the finest player I've ever seen.
underage numbers are increasing in most places so it’s not worried parents. Kids are playing more sports now and I suspect when they make decisions in what to stick with in their teenage years they often look ahead and I’d imagine in limerick, hurling is very attractive. I coach u11 and of our 35 odd player id say 25 play another team sport and the rest nearly all do something like karate etc.
I'm the same, but in Dublin.
For boys anyway, a huge amount do 2 of soccer/ gaa/ rugby.
Northside more soccer/gaa. West Dublin same. Southside more gaa/ rugby.
When it got to Under 16, it seemed like huge amounts of kids dropped out of gaa clubs in Ballyboden, Templeogue, Kilmacud etc etc as they were basically being told by their schools they had to.
One major problem for rugby is that it is gladiatorial in nature. Huge physical contact, Not in Soccer. Not in hurling. Not in football. A soccer player can be 5'6" or 6'6" without anyone batting an eyelid. A 100kg soccer player has no particular advantage over an 80kg one. Not so in rugby. In order for team A to be safely competitive with team B there has to be some parity in the various positional players. A school with only 300 boys will never provide a rugby team. The numbers alone make it impossible. The vast majority of schoolboys attend schools which are too small to play the game. If you don't play rugby at schools level you are very unlikely to play in the post school years. Small schools also don't have rugby pitches. You can play football on the street, cricket, hurling (up to a point). You can't play rugby - except touch - on a hard surface. Therefore rugby will never be a mass participation sport in Ireland as the schools are the seed bed of the game here.
Cistercian College, Roscrea has an enrolment of just 260 students, admittedly all boarders, and produced Gavin Duffy, Tiernan O'Halloran etc historically, and all of the following current rugby players:
There are also 3 players starting for the Irish U20s this season who went to Roscrea (Billy Hayes, Joe Finn & Rob Carney).
Clongowes has only 450 students (again all boarders) and has obviously a very long heritage of producing rugby players (including current internationals like Dan Sheehan, Tadhg Beirne etc).
That's utter bollix to be honest. Do only upper class schools have more than 300 boys per school ? Do you think we don't have any grass in working class suburbs ?
Loads of schools pass your test and produce no players. The answer is a far simpler one about culture where schools and geographical areas have their embedded sports and that's hard to break.
The poster earlier isn't wrong that rugby players come from certain areas but I disagree that there is much the IRFU can do about it. You do get rare windows where your province is doing exceptionally well and it inspires a generation through TV but it's not easy. As I said earlier places like Limerick can be in flux depending on wether you grew up watching Italia 90, peak Munster or John Kielys Limerick.
This is wilfully blind to the psychological components of sporting success. Does anyone really believe that no Irish team was never good enough to beat the All Blacks until 2016, when Irish teams had quite often beaten teams that beat the ABs with some regularity? Very often those teams were beaten before they walked onto the field. Similarly, look at how often successful teams first lost semis and finals in Europe, it's a rite of passage. Mayo/Dublin is another relevant example, all in their heads. I'm surprised how many people here discount the psychological difficulty of doing something hard for the first time.
And this is not to downplay the success we've enjoyed over the last couple decades. Thats been astonishing. I first saw Ireland beat England in Landsdowne in the early 80s and it was like a miracle, something that was genuinely novel. The WC is just another competition while the 6N is genuinely part of Irish rugby DNA, but it is the case unarguably that not being able to get past the 1/4 is an epic underachievement.
No, but nowhere in my post did I say anything like "no Irish team was never good enough to beat the All Blacks until 2016".
I don't know where your post is coming from.
It not just the perceived problem of concussion, its the actual risk. Anyone considering rugby for their kids just needs to do a google search to discover that rugby is much more dangerous that the likes of mountain biking, soccer, surfing and even boxing, other sports that have head injury problems. Elite players have a 1 in 6 game risk of concussion, lower as you go down the levels but still likely that you will get concussed if you play rugby for any length of time, as anyone who has played will attest.
I wasn't just responding to your note, but I disagree with the idea that winning a 1/4 and losing a semi would make no difference. Big difference when its something we haven't achieved before.
Munster or Ulster or Connacht can never replicate what Leinster have with their schools and Leinster very much recognise if theyre to stay at the top they need to expand beyond the schools because of the nature of their schools who dominate schools rugby Leinster are only getting players from a very limited part of the population.
Munster hasnt really been damaged by Limerick hurling. Munster rugby was very much damaged by Munster Rugby and big mistakes around LTPD amongst themselves. And how they developed players. Now theyve put in processes at all levels from under 14 to under 18 in clubs and changed many aspects of competition in schools rugby as well and the coaching has by and large increased hugely in both youths(clubs) and schools since Munster were a peak european team. circa 2005-2010. These changes combined with the coaching development officers being stronger and much improved in recent years should see a big increase/improvement in players being developed by/within Munster
Carney is playing with Cashel as he chose to not because he was not picked in Munster academy. if he wanted to progress to academy or make his progression easier he may have chosen to play in a division 1A or 1B AIL club.
I dont really see that. And i dont think the numbers reflect that either jack. Look at numbers playing minis/youths/age grade rugby. compare it over years and numbers playing even with the ever increasing dabate and knowledge around concussion/head injuries and there isnt this drop off. rugby has been quite open about concussion and head injuries and working to if in doubt sit it out
wrong thread
Have you written elsewhere on the forum about the problems of LTPD at Munster? I would be interested in knowing more.
Maybe it's already been discussed but anyone favour Owen Farrell as a player or assistant coach?
Hard NO from me as a player.
Assistant coach i could possibly stomach.
*I know he's not Ireland Qualified or won't be but that BS story was doing the rounds.
And Castrogiovanni wasn't even eligible to play for Italy!
In fairness they were giving scholarships to prospective stars so it covers a far wider area.
If you go around the underage premier Division soccer,u16/17/18 most of the players are six foot odd , physically strong players.
where was that doing the rounds?
For the day that's in it…
