Metrolink south of Charlemont

I agree that the framing is important but for me it's a different aspect. My own view on a SW metro is that the relatively low density of the Terenure corridor shouldn't condemn it to crap PT access forever. There is a chicken & egg thing going on there.

I think we need to see a potential SW metro as a trunk, into which all the buses in SW Dublin would feed, not just a service for those fortunate enough to live in one of the semis within a kilometre of the line. In time I think densification around the stations would be driven by market forces and land rezoning. We should not expect it to happen overnight and it should not be a pre-requisite to driving a high capacity trunk route through SW Dublin because otherwise we will never be able to fix the PT situation there. I have absolutely no skin in that game by the way. I wouldn't benefit in the slightest from a metro or anything else around there.

The lands at Ballymount clearly offer a lot of brownfield development opportunites. Ballymount is already skirted by Red Line Luas. The fact that the Red Line is much crappier than it should be because of the city centre section needs addressing in its own right. It's just not good enough the way it is. Either we build DU and divert most Red Line trams to the planned Kylemore DART station and/or we seriously look at undergrounding Red Line from James's and let it take a to be planned route somewhere through the city centre, continuing ideally onwards to form a through route pre-metro. If we are moderately ambitious (in a European context!) we could imagine an N11 Luas going underground at Donnybrook and emerging at Broadstone and continuing to Finglas, forming a very high quality pre-metro spine from NW to SE. Into this tunnel could join a Red Line alignment, allowing Tallaght-City-N11 and/or Tallaght-City-Finglas pre-metro routes.

If Red Line was "sorted" capacity wise we could look at diverting it right through the lands at Ballymount allowing large scale redevelopment there. I don't think we should "drag" a SW metro that far out so that it essentially overlaps the "good bits" of Red Line Luas and ignores the really badly served "heart" of SW Dublin.

Metro SW is probably beyond the working lifetime of most already in employment.

We have existing rail lines that the government won’t fund. What most modern countries would see as open goal stuff. It’ll take a drastic change within FFFG or their removal and a decent replacement if we are gonna make serious progress.

What’s going on just isn’t good enough.

I can't see the government spending billions of euros on a SW extension. The only reason they are forking out for the current line is the airport. DART Underground is a far more compelling argument than an extension. Much prefer movement on that.

I think by the time the metro has reached Charlemont, it’s far too late to branch it southwest. There is nowhere near enough density and far more benefit can be achieved for far cheaper by a Green Line upgrade to Sandyford, and a resultant rerouting of the exiting GL down the N11.

The SW needs a metro but it needs to be done right. Other posters have good points about Terenure, yes it is low density but as @murphaph pointed out there is a cause and effect situation going on here. I still don’t believe it justifies a metro.

An SW metro needs to run from south of Tallaght, through Tallaght, Ballymount, Kimmage and up into the SW CC, hitting DU at Christchurch, and the existing metro at say, the Mater (where it could join with it, though this would be a half arsed solution and be worse for both SE and SW Dublin.

It should continue up towards Whitehall, Beaumont, Coolock, and Donaghmede/Clongriffin, towards all of that unused land that is equally as ripe for development as Ballymount. If done right, a SW to NE metro line could unlock more new development than the existing line…

I think by the time Metro has reached Charlemont, it has to go towards Sandyford, and anything else would be a waste of infrastructure. Bending it towards DSW would be an insulting half-arsed attempt for those living there. But a plan for a proper SW Metro needs to be established asap.

Hopefully the CBA examines this, that if sending the existing line to DSW isn’t right (which I don’t think it is), it recognises that there is a serious need for a line here - and in DSE…

Green Line upgrade to ML is the most obvious way to extend ML and for me. I'm working under the (perhas naive) assumption that the Green Line will indeed be converted to ML as far as Sandyford at least. The N11 Luas can take over south of there if there is no will to drive ML over to meet the DART (which I see as a no brainer for connectivity and redundancy reasons), just as it is in north Dublin where most of us think ML should be extended to meet the future DART and perhaps intercity services either at Donabate or Rush & Lusk.

I wasn't saying that ML should go to DSW and ignore the easy win of upgrading the Green Line, if it came across that way. A GL upgrade to metro would be of great benefit to at least some eastern parts of south and maybe even south west Dublin if the buses are properly reorganised to take passengers over to the upgraded Green Line.

A DSW is a long way away and there is much lower hanging fruit to pick before it happens but I maintain that there is no other way to really solve the problem long term without an underground solution of some sort.

Why can't they just upgrade the Red line to metro? I mean, most of it was built on land reserved for yet another abandoned railway idea of a Dart line westwards.

Head out to Greenhills road, from the Walkinstown roundabout to Tallaght there is a huge amount of brownfield in 60 yo+ industrial units - all not far from the end of their intended working life. Folks should drive thru it to appreciate the scale. There is i) clear potential to run Metro overground from there to Tallaght ii) in turn opening up a huge amount of potential brownfield residential land. The other side of the Greenhills road is in Ballymount Ind Est - newer buildings, but in time they will be in-scope for replacement.

Look further on that route at Broomfield Ind Est, Airton Road area - high density residential currently going in there replacing old obsolete industrial / commercial stock. There are also data centres in that area giving scope for district heating. IMHO hard to see other SW routes presenting this level of development potential at this scale.

Kylemore Luas is 25 mins walk from W/Town roundabout and the proposed Kylemore Dart is further on again. While those will argue this general area is well serviced by PT, the issue in question is the actual ability to deliver PT connectivity while opening up tracts of residential brownfield land on old industrial areas, thus allowing the necessary densification which makes Metro more viable. To that, Naas Road, Bluebell etc also has old commercial / industrial units ripe for redevelopment and the adjacent DART SW is a great idea tying in with these.

The reality is other areas being mentioned Rathfarnham, Firhouse etc whatever their argued merits, are largely 'semi D land' and IMHO do not have the same scope.

I'm not sure you're reading the conversation correctly

Ballymount is not practical from the red line in general. Add to that the redline is already pretty packed. Ballymount is ripe for development, I know the area quite well and there is industrial land from walkinstown roundabout up to tymon and over to the red cow that is massively underused. Even the industrial estates between Greenhills road and Greenhills itself are full of wasted space.
I grew up nearby and we used to have parties in old units in the early 90s and even then those estates were dumps.
apartments are creeping up Ballymount and there are people looking for permission at the bottom of the greenhills road.
that area would make a great new town if it had links

Not sure how the Red Line could be considered to service Ballymount Ind Est with all due respect ?? Kylemore is 25 min walk to Ballymount Road - the entrance at the W/Town roundabout. Red Cow stop is the far side of the M50 - the far end of Ballymount - across a 6/8 lane motorway ….

With regard to Red line densification go back closer to the city where there has been brownfield in-fill (albeit understandably limited due to availability of suitable sites).

Further out areas currently in industrial / commercial use with aligned zoning are not currently going to be a) available for resi development but b) there can be a moment when 'its time has come'. At the Bluebell end of the Naas Road you can already see the beginnings of this.

My argument is now resi development and PT need to be aligned - particularly at the scale / density we will now need. The way we did things before - incrementally, small scale, no joined up 'grand plan' won't work in the future.

The LUAS is great, but it has limits too - note debate on the on / off Green Line metro upgrade. This tread is about where the Metro should go in the SW city. By any reasonable analysis my option gives huge scope for development from Walkinstown out, plus importantly a feasible overground option.

Not sure how the Red Line could be considered to service Ballymount Ind Est with all due respect ?? Kylemore is 25 min walk to Ballymount Road - the entrance at the W/Town roundabout. Red Cow stop is the far side of the M50 - the far end of Ballymount - across a 6/8 lane motorway ….

Easily enough solved - throw a footbridge over the M50 here and stick a new station in, bingo:

Beyond that, a 25 minute walk is a perfectly reasonable distance for public transport access - it's certainly not the kind of walking distance where you'd expect another high quality line even closer

I didn’t miss the point at all. I don’t think the redline is close enough to most of Ballymount to be of real value to it. On one side it’s separated by the m50 and on another it’s down the central median of the naas road. I don’t think the red line has much room for increase in capacity as there is a lot of street running/crossings and even a couple of tight enough turns.
As to it getting a metro stop I absolutely doubt it will happen but if the area was rezoned and a line went that way it could make a great new town inside the m50.

yeah there is an area they effectively goes from the housing estates in greenhills. To the m50 over as far as the naas road at bluebell that’s fairly low density industrial. There’s a huge amount of space and whilst I wouldn’t suggest that all the industry should be moved on I do think that Ballymount road from the walkinstown roundabout straight up to the top roundabout where you turn right for the red cow will be slowly eaten by apartments over the next 20 years. There are some huge sites there especially go ahead depot. I suspect we will get residential creep instead of good planning but it’s an area that could be developed in a great way if the will was there and excellent PT would need to be part of it