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"No to war" & "breakdown of international law" - Spanish PM Sánchez

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Does it really matter whose missile/bomb etc actually did the damage? Think about that for a minute.

    Would these people still be alive today if the US/Isreal didn't pull the trigger on Iran?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,616 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    If Israel didn't exist, which countries in the Middle East would be fighting each other?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    They voted Hamas in, just like the Germans voted the nazis in. You don’t see people crying for German civilians killed during WW2. You reap what you sow, that goes for both sides.

    Go watch the video of that German girl being dragged naked behind a truck on October 7th while civilians cheer and ask your self if something like that would happen in Northern Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Go read the Hamas charter when they were voted in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    As far as I see human motivations have not changed for all of documented history, and long before that, that's why even though the actors and technology change, the cycles keep repeating. We must consider ourselves fortunate our lives to date have been in the upside of the cycle, particularly following the collapse of communist regimes nearly 40 years ago.

    Iran is nearly 2,000 KM from Israel, no common border, there is no good reason from my vantage to be at each others throats. The core reason is Irans ruling Shia muslim eschatology, there is no reasoning, no negotiation with this belief system, it stops when that side is destroyed by its own people or the external enemies it has provoked. After what happened to Maduro, Ali Khamenei figured correctly he was a target and left a "dead mans switch" in place, bypassing the command structure and giving field commanders authorization to fire at will, in expectation pressure from the neighbouring countries will force the USA to stop. I reckon the external game plan is shutdown the Iranians regimes ability to conduct operations outside Iran and let them spend their time tearing each other apart.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2026/03/06/stuart-gilhooly-fai-members-unhappy-over-the-israel-games-can-still-stop-them-heres-how/

    As we all know by now, Ireland have been drawn to play Israel in the men’s Nations League away in September and at home in October. This piece isn’t about whether we should play the Israel games. I have my own very strong views on that, but so do many others.

    This is about how the board of the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) has gone about making the decision, what I think it should have done and what options the members of the FAI now have to take the matter into their own hands.

    Explaining the decision by the board to fulfil the fixtures, FAI president Paul Cooke said in a note to members: “The board cannot act in a manner that would place the association or its directors in breach of their legal duties or expose the FAI to severe sporting, financial or reputational sanctions.”

    FAI chief executive David Courell was asked at a press conference whether the FAI general assembly had the right to overturn the decision through a motion to boycott the fixture. “Whether or not we fulfil these fixtures is a decision for the board and the executive. As such, that decision has been taken,” he replied.


    In a narrow, technical, legal sense, it is probably true to say it is a board decision, but there is another way of going about it.

    If the board wanted to put the decision to the members then it certainly could. Indeed, if the members wanted to take ownership of the decision then they can also do that.

    For technical legal reasons, which I won’t go into here, all they need to do is to propose and pass a special resolution of the members (75.1 per cent needed) to amend the constitution of the FAI and include a simple sentence that this decision is one for the members, not the board.

    Seventy five per cent is a lot, but don’t forget that 93 per cent passed a resolution last November to ask Uefa to remove Israel from all competitions. (A vote to pass a special resolution would have to take place at an extraordinary general meeting, and only 10 per cent of members are required to request one.)

    Ultimately, the general assembly of any body of this kind is the governing authority – the FAI rules actually state that. If enough of the members want the board to do something then the board is compelled to do it (unless it is illegal, which clearly does not apply here).

    The “legal obligations” Cooke referred to were not defined, but we must assume that these are contractual in nature. These are just breaches of Uefa rules. We get a sanction, Israel get the points. There are also, of course, financial implications.

    The argument that we may be relegated to Group C or lose seeding are valid, but the assumption that we are throwing away six points in the group doesn’t really pass muster given our recent records against similar opposition.

    And let’s not forget, it’s clear that Uefa and the Israeli FA are also in breach of rules. Uefa has failed to sanction Israel for permitting six Israeli clubs to play in another Fifa member’s territory without the permission of the football association which governs that territory, namely the Palestinian FA. So, really, breaching rules isn’t all that unusual.

    When it comes to decisions of this nature, best practice is for a board to go to the members and at least try to deliver upon their views, after an informed, open and honest debate.

    This, of course, isn’t what’s happening. The FAI board has already made a unilateral decision without any consultation and is ignoring the views of members, which were made abundantly clear in November.

    There is a realistic possibility that the members would not approve of a decision to boycott the matches, but good governance and good sense dictate that they should be given the choice.

    The FAI members do have another option (either by agreement with the board or by special resolution), which is to resolve that the FAI should sue Uefa and the Israeli FA for their long-standing breach of Fifa rules in permitting clubs in the occupied territories to participate in the Israeli league system without the Palestinian FA’s consent. These breaches are straightforward and obvious.

    Any sanction could ultimately be suspension of the Israeli FA, or indeed termination of the membership of the Israeli FA from Uefa, and therefore from Fifa, if it doesn’t comply with the rules.

    Alternatively, the FAI members could decide to do both. It’s up to them. The decision should, and does, rest with the general assembly, a body comprising the full gamut of Irish football. The board should simply comply with their wishes.

    Stuart Gilhooly is a legal adviser to the Professional Footballers Association of Ireland (PFA Ireland)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Iran would be fighting its neighbours in the Gulf, the clash between Sunni and Shia is distracted by Israel.

    The likes of UAE and Saudi are thankful for Israel deflecting the attention of Iran.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    I would question that legal advice very strongly, there is a saying that you get the legal advice that you pay for, in other words, legal advice depends on who is asking a question and for what reasons.

    Note that he clearly says that in a "legal sense, it is probably true to say it is a board decision". The rest is just garbage as a result of that statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Maybe so

    Doesnt render the point that "Uefa and the Israeli FA are also in breach of rules" as garbage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Stating that UEFA is in breach of rules does not make it so.

    Similarly, the suggestion that the FAI could sue UEFA is laughable, as they have no locus standi. The FAI have made a complaint, it has been rejected, that is the process.



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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,189 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    So what price are you willing to pay? Do you want to go on your knees before Donald, Vladimir, Benjamin or perhaps Kim? Because that is what you are realling talking about, just how much crawling on your knees you are willing to do. You want a conversation, then start by setting out what you are willing to give up and what if any principles you have. And as this is a public discussion, no you can't control the conversation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    May I gently suggest that it is in fact 'so' according to UEFA’s Legal and Compliance Framework

    Please also Note: UEFA is a company under Swiss law in accordance with Article 60 et seq. of the Swiss Civil Code and is therefore subject to both national law and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Thanks Jim and thanks for your input.

    I'd like the game not to be played.

    I'd like the Govt of Ireland to stand up and say the same as Spain and do the same as Spain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I think Jim is reffering to a much bigger picture than just whether a football match is played or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    As am I. "The Game" is but a metaphor for the game the irish Govt are playing and the Fai.

    Grovelling to USA and Uefa



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭thomil


    Everyone would be at each other’s throats, trying to get some sort of dominant position in the region. That’s before ethnic tensions, border conflicts, and so on.

    People tend to forget that the nations and/or borders in the region haven’t developed naturally. They were drawn up seemingly at random following the end of the Ottoman Empire and WW1. France and Britain carved up the Middle East like a turkey with the 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement, and the Ottoman successor states that were brought into being after the war were designed to conform to the spheres of influence of Britain and France, rather than reflect the actual situation on the ground. No attention at all was paid to ethnic or religious divisions.

    All of that doesn’t even touch on the issues of pan-Arab nationalism or the political divisions brought about by the Cold War, which would have come into being even without the establishment of the State of Israel. Even without Israel, the entire region would have gone up in flames sooner or later, probably with a higher casualty count and far less public scrutiny than the region is currently attracting.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Thanks for clarifying. That didn't come across clearly to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,628 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Israelis voted in Nethanyu for much of the last 30 years. Go read his party's charter also. Then consider the statements of various current Israeli government ministers who speak about turning places into parking lots and removing citizens from areas under occupation to somewhere else. Now from that, would you object if i said all Israelis wanted to genocide Palestinians?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    They hate each other’s guts to a greater extent than people in the West can understand. It’s the Islamists that are the ones planning terror attacks on Europe, not the Jews. They would be the lesser of two evils for us.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 11,189 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    You don't even seem to understand Spain's position! Spain will fight if necessary just like every other member state to protect our way of life. So the question remains what price are you willing to pay?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    Peace and international rules - a joke.

    The US are the biggest and preach about rules (A lot of European big hitters next - France, Germany etc). They all do yet don't play by the rules themselves.

    And people wonder why other countries don't play the rules.

    Until everyone agrees to play the rules (i.e is forced to by someone who is willing to abide by the rules themselves even if its not in their interests), there will never be peace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,628 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    That maybe true, however given Israel professes to be a democracy it doesn't excuse their actions in places like the West Bank. Also Qatar and Saudi Arabia have funded terrorists groups, but their allies so they seemingly get a free pass.

    Also given you are someone who has a problem with immigration , the irony is what's happening in the middle east at their behest, could end up causing another refugee crisis which spills into Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You're pretty much correct there. Now who do you think can do the forcing, and how (given this is a "no to war" thread, presumably the forcing would have to be non-military)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    So how much terrorism was the US, Israel and the Sunni countries supposed to take from Iran while doing nothing to respond? More 7/Oct/23 attacks by their proxies? Should they have waited for Iran to have nukes like what happened with North Korea?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Iran would be attacking its neighbours, indirectly if not challenged, even if the Jews didn't exist. You can't blame them for Iran being a Shia supremacist totalitarian theocracy, though I know some would like to try.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Trump appeared to threaten to just use the bases anyway. That would definitely be a violation of Spain's sovereignty. He sees Europe as vassals I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    All huff and puff and you still haven't put forward any locus standi for the FAI to sue UEFA. It is a laughable proposal.

    It would lead to automatic expulsion from every UEFA competition, and the LOI would be shut down.

    The stuff that I read around here makes me wonder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Are you suggesting that there's been no response to Iranian agression prior to last Saturday?

    The relevant parties were in negotiations for several years. Going to war with them with no coherent play isn't going to end up positively for anyone involved. Do you think the Iranians will be more friendly with external countries after this war?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Iran's position since 1979 has been crystal clear, "Death to America, Death to Israel." I'm not sure how they could be more unfriendly than that, or what these "negotiations" could have accomplished.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Thanks. That has a nice ring to it.

    Mr. Huff&Puff!



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