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Shannon water for Dublin

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Every other country in Europe has a higher summer temperature than us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Most countries in Europe promote better regional development we have 30% of our population in Dublin, it's rare enough for a country to have such a huge proportion of the country in one concentrated area so resources aren't going to be as strained

    We also have a huge concentration of Europe's data centres, again based in Dublin, so need a greater proportion of our water to go there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Unless you tell every Dublin mammy that their children can't live near them, you won't solve the problem for several generations.

    The current National Plan sees development skewed to the regions, but that still won't happen fast enough for the Shannon plan to be unnecessary. Besides, places like Athlone and the rest of the midlands that are earmarked for growth need the pipeline too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    This is a false equivalence. The level of arrears to the electricity companies doesn’t depend solely on electricity prices, but rather of the general costs of living with or without considering electricity. If electricity were half the price, with no other change in costs in the economy, you wouldn’t see much change in that number, because it’s merely a symptom of a wider cost-of-living crisis: one driven primarily by high property costs.

    DCs didn’t increase the global price of natural gas by any significant amount: Ireland doesn’t set a global price, and the high concentration of DCs here is a blip that is meaningless internationally. Electricity generation isn’t even the major user of natural gas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    People are confusing the (very large) electricity requirement of data centres with the issue of water supplies.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭dmakc


    It's disingenuous to suggest that our extortionate energy prices have little to do with three hundred thousand people struggling to meet their energy bills.

    Don't know where to begin on the second. I'm not talking about international prices, I'm talking about the national demand driving up our household bills. Electricity generation is is a big user of gas. We have the highest per capita gas-fired generation in Europe. This amazingly excludes another 6GW in the planning pipeline. We also have the highest overall level for such payments, 70% higher than the next-ranked in Britain. Throw in the chart below and you've a gold rush for subsidised developers to supply their gas-driven DCs. It's supply and demand, except the contributors have decoupled from what should be a fair equation, and the consumer loses out.

    image.png

    Anyway this is off topic, someone was acting as if our DC situation is good for the world without consequence for the host which is clearly not the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Data centres also require a very large amount of water



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,146 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Can Irish water be trusted to look after water and a massive pipeline project? I doubt it. If its piped to Dublin then more will be lost in the faulty Dublin system and it will be used for existing development as well as new development. New development near the Shannon won't have that problem or an existing large population drawing on its supply plus the huge and problematic costs of a massive pipeline. Trying to be as clear as I can be on this 1.5 Million approx drawing on the shannon or say 300,000 in Athlone etc?

    Oh and generally, city dwellers use more water per head than town or rural dwellers. This higher consumption is driven by easier access to piped, pressurized water, higher living standards, and increased water usage for activities like lawn irrigation, swimming pools, and car washing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I didn’t say they had "little" to do with it. I rebutted your claim that this was the main cause. Household debt is a complex thing. People who are in arrears with their electricity are also in other debt, and are choosing who to pay based on need. Energy suppliers are one of the more lenient domestic creditors (landlords are among the least).

    Electricity generation is not the biggest user of gas.

    Not one bit of this has anything to do with the Shannon scheme, so I'm not going to engage further. You want to discuss it, find somewhere it's on topic..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Ok grand, let's reboot.

    Because it's been modelled over every year since Ardnacrusha opened to 2015. Every winter/spring the parteen/Derg basin is raised by half a metre to give an operating band of depth for the power station/river over the Summer.

    Level up.. power station in use, level drops..power station not in use. The level has never dropped below the half metre band, either in reality or with the pipeline modelling.

    So Lough Derg has been maintained above it's original level since Ardnacrusha opened. It's constantly monitored and the pipeline takeoff will obviously be added to the calculations.

    Therefore it's simply not feasible imo that an either/or pipeline/river flow would ever be an issue regardless of any drought. Worst case scenario is Lough Derg would drop below the band, but then it would be only starting to go below it's original level.

    As I linked earlier the lake levels were normal as of July 2018, probably the only lake in the country that was. That's because it has it's own failsafe.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    No offence intended it was a general lament which I'm sure you've felt yourself at times on boards.

    You were suggesting the pipeline could be used to reduce the demand on the Liffey. That's simply not possible as it's merely a small add on to the Dublin supply. Most of it will be supplying areas outside of Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    That was surprising to me when I heard about it first. That data centres use "evaporative cooling". Water is basically poured on the server cooling systems and evaporates into the atmosphere. It's very energy efficient, but uses crazy amounts of water compared with traditional air conditioning. These centres should not be located anywhere that water supply is constrained.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It has been suggested that Data Centres use a huge amount water. What do they do with it - drink it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Legitimate questions but the concerns have already been addressed by what standardg60 and John Rambo have posted.

    Lough Derg level didn't drop in 2018, a dry spell we may not see for decades. I has been raised and controlled for a century by the ESB. The half metre is months and months of supply for the water plant even if all rivers into Derg were to dry up (hypothetical for absurd comparison only).

    To address your passenger cap analogy. The EPA licence and regulate the abstraction. They won't have a profit motive like the DAA do. In fact it is the opposite scenario, the EPA are solely interested in protecting the river.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    What I meant was, people are confusing reports that data centres are driving up demand on the national electricity grid, with the overall increased demand for water for day-to-day living. This pipeline is absolutely not about data centres, as was claimed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Oh and generally, city dwellers use more water per head than town or rural dwellers. This higher consumption is driven by easier access to piped, pressurized water, higher living standards, and increased water usage for activities like lawn irrigation, swimming pools, and car washing.

    Where are you getting these "facts"? I presume it's AI because this is like something you'd read comparing people in Dublin to people in Saharan Africa who have to walk ten miles to the well.

    How many houses in Dublin have a swimming pool? Do country people not wash their cars? How many country people don't have "access to piped water"?

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    How do they cool the servers with water - spray them?

    I do not understand how the do that with water in Ireland. It looks like a fake suggestion. I mean where does the used water go? Surely they would just recycle it. I would think they would use a heat pump of some sort to cool the servers which would not use water at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Way OT but I assume it works similarly to a car cooling system. In Tallaght the resulting hot water goes to heat local authority homes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    That's all correct but is there anywhere that addresses the downstream effects?

    On that modelling, I previously asked you if that report predated 2018 or not? Do you know the answer to that?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Your point re the DAA vs EPA is good and would help allay those fears.

    That report references upstream Shannon levels (lough Derg) rather than downstream river levels, I'm not sure if the equivalent is available for the case we're discussing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    My understanding of @Former Former Former's point here was that the introduction of the Shannon pipeline (~300mL/day) would allow the base levels in poulaphouca to recover (because of less draw) so that in times of drought poulaphuca would be in a good enough position that the Shannon pipeline could be "turned off" at those times. I've seen nothing to think that this is the proposition though

    Open to correction on that @Former Former Former



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    There was a link earlier in the thread that has river flow values. Is your concern that less than 10m3/sec will go down the original Shannon route?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Yes, I'm wondering what will happen in that scenario i.e. when the volume that's going to ardnacrusha is zero so the abstraction rate of the pipe cannot be taken from there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    a small add on to the Dublin supply.

    By your own figures, demand in Dublin is 600 million litres per day. The pipeline can deliver 300 million. How is that "a small add-on"?

    Most of it will be supplying areas outside of Dublin.

    The initial construction will be for the Dublin area. Other areas will follow later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Currently backstopped by legislation that 10 has to go down the original river, so in the 2018 dry scenario a weir would have to be lowered to allow 10m3/s down the original river route while say 3m3/s is being abstracted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Ah I think I see the confusion now. You think the pipeline will be abstracting THE water flowing through Ardnacrusha, not the water that WOULD have flowed through it, which is what it will be doing.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Car cooling systems do not lose water, they just recycle it. The same with the district heating systems used in Tallaght, the water is in a closed system - no water is lost.

    So where does the water 'used' by a Data Centre go? Or to change the question, where did this claim that Data Centres 'use' vast quantities of water come from? It sounds as if it might apply to DC installations in a location that has a very different climate to here. In other words a worthless claim with no basis in fact or just plain fake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    This angle might help...

    The headrace canal from Parteen to Ardnacrusha is 8 miles long but look at all the gates holding back the reservoir in Derg, at a higher level the downstream river or headrace diversion.

    The reservoir water is still there whether the diversion to the headrace canal is 0 or 400m3/s.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-consumption

    Approximately 80% of the water (typically freshwater) withdrawn by data centers evaporates, with the remaining water discharged to municipal wastewater facilities.

    I thought it was a pretty well known fact that Data cetres use large amounts of water. It's not a worthless or fake claim at all. It's just a plain fact.

    Some in warmer climates will use more than ones based in a more temperate climate like ours but they still use massive amounts of water.



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