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Shannon water for Dublin

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,507 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    No, I won't ask her. But @standardg60 supplied a document that covers this situation.

    During normal and moderately dry periods, the abstraction is offset by reducing flow through Ardnacrusha. So lake levels stay effectively the same. The real test is when ESB has already stopped generating in a serious drought. They looked at 1995, one of the worst dry years on record. In that scenario the maximum additional drawdown was 68mm. That’s under 7cm. Still within the existing normal operating band. Statutory compensation flow unchanged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Oh right, not sure what the point of you mentioning her was so?

    That report makes no mention of modelling the maxium outflows during a time of drought which seems like a fairly obvious error (and therefore begs the question of intentionally avoiding discussion of the worst case).

    As someone else mentioned, they also didn't include 2018 which seemingly had extremely low river levels and no flow through ardnacrusha at times



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,507 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    They modelled daily water levels from 1932 to 2015. That includes serious drought years. 1995 is specifically examined, and during that period generation had effectively stopped for weeks. That’s the exact “maximum low outflow” scenario people are saying wasn’t considered. In that worst case the additional drawdown from the abstraction was 68mm. Still within the normal operating band. Now, what you can legitimately question is this. 2018 isn’t included. The modelling is based on historic records, not future climate projections.

    So if the argument is that climate change could produce something worse than anything between 1932 and 2015, that’s a fair debate.

    But saying they didn’t model drought or worst case low flow conditions just isn’t correct. They did, and it's recorded for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    2018 isn't the future - unless the report dates from before that?

    The part of the report posted here discusses the levels upstream, it doesn't appear to address the scenario where there is zero flow to ardnacrusha and the flow to the old Shannon is below 10m/s - what would happen then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    The worst case scenario is the largest lake in the state will drop a bit lower, we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here for reasons to oppose the pipeline.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Apologies, on reread I wasn't as clear as I should have been - I'm asking what will happen downstream in that scenario?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    No need to apologise, I understood what you meant. The lake will be feeding downstream and the pipeline, that's why it might drop a bit. The sheer volume of water held in it would handle any possible drought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    So maybe it would be okay, based on the reports provided; though it doesn't appear to have been considered? Or maybe it has and it just hasn't been spelled out explicitly.

    Post edited by MacDanger on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,150 ✭✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Nail on the head there - state agencies continue to be some of the biggest environmental criminals in the country!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    I think everyone on thread should know that you are not engaged in unbiased commentary and are advocating that 10billion euro of taxpayer money should be directed at this folly by hook or by crook. Quid pro quo? Your relative at least. Datacentres which need loads of water and those who are responsible for supplying water to greater Dublin and do not want to fix their own leaks.

    I will continue to advocate for an unspoiled rural Ireland.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Just posting a picture that was also in the former thread. The beneficial zone is huge.

    1000001606.jpg

    This thread has some great talk about abstraction numbers in detail, the last thread was a joke.

    Considering each turbine in Ardnacrusha can do 100m3/s this really adds context to the 4m/s figure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Knowing someone on the project does not make that poster biased. They were honest enough to bring it up.

    Unspolied is a bit late. Ireland was once almost completely forested. The dam is there a century. In years prior to the hydro project 414,000 lbs of salmon per year were caught.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Spare me. This project is not for the benefit of Leinster.

    Those towns along the way can and are provisioning their own water cheaper than this proposal.

    Between this and the renewable energy threads it is obvious that most of the advocating is being done by those who directly benefit or are related to those who benefit. We have had posters let slip that they are commissioning projects on to the grid

    There is no balance on these threads. People are pushing an agenda.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Here's an interesting coincidence between the size of Lough Derg (117km2) and the flow rate of the pipeline (3.82m3/s).

    It would take precisely 1 year for the pipeline to abstract precisely 1 metre of depth. That of course is treating the two as standalone entities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I refuse to take anyone claiming rural Ireland as 'unspoiled' seriously. 0.1% of Ireland is old growth native woodland which once covered the entire Island

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Have a look at the map again. The treatment plant won't be in Leinster. The benefit area includes parts of Munster, Connacht and Leinster.

    What towns are provisioning their own water?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,507 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    You’re accusing me of insulting people. Again, show me where that has occurred.

    I’ll comment on what I like, without seeking your permission. The fact that a relative of mine works on a project does not require me to “declare” anything to you. You’re not a moderator, and even a moderator wouldn’t make that demand.

    As already discussed, most of the leakage issues have been addressed. And, as we all know, this pipeline is not just about Dublin. It supports Dublin, Swords, Blanchardstown, Tallaght, Dún Laoghaire, Naas, Maynooth, Leixlip, Celbridge, Navan, Dunboyne, Ashbourne, Bray, Greystones, the Midlands strategic resilience supply, and parts of Offaly and Westmeath.

    Your hostility towards Dublin is clearly colouring your view.

    I’ll continue to advocate for what is best for Ireland as a whole, rural and urban and everything in between.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    While the Shannon River Basin in some areas has suffered from human intervention it still includes many places of great natural beauty.

    Interestingly one of them is St. John's Wood in Roscommon which is one of the largest remaining areas of native woodland.

    St. John's Wood | Native Woodland https://share.google/CmOf04C8nmtca2lc7



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    I support you in advocating for an unspoiled rural Ireland. However, this is the wrong issue.

    If you want to advocate for an unspoiled rural Ireland, you need to take the following steps, one after the other:

    (1) Ban all one-off housing outside of urban centres

    (2) Ban all development in rural villages with less than 1,000 inhabitants

    (3) Introduce a scheme to incentivise the abandonment of one-off housing (the biggest scourge on the landscape) with people encouraged to move to urban centres with at least 1,000 inhabitants.

    (4) The final step is to curtail all services to one-off housing - electricity, broadband etc. - thus removing unsightly poles from the landscape.

    Only then will you have a truly unspoiled rural Ireland with the human element removed.

    Now, no politician will advocate for the above, but if you really believe in it, off you go.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,031 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Interesting facts… I wouldn't consider there to be any 'coincidence' in there mind

    It's been long established that the pipeline would only be extracting 2% of the water from the Parteen basin. It's questionable if these levels will be enough, especially in the case of conditions similar to the drought we had back a few years ago, 2% of nothing is still nothing after all

    All in all there is a fear, rightly or wrongly that there won't be enough water to supply the settlement south of the Parteen basin. Moving the extraction point closer to the mouth, specifically downstream of these settlements, would surely sort this more easily than the political mess that seems to be unfolding



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Looking at the route map, surely abstracting at the north of Lough Derg, or close to Athlone would reduce the pipeline by up tp 50%, and presumably the cost by a similar amount. Am I missing something?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You are, it was proposed previously.

    The original project was planning to abstract at the Inner Lakes on Lough Ree just North of Athlone.

    Following strong local objection this plan was abandoned.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2019/0125/1025574-irish-water-lough-ree/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Whataboutery. Anyone build in the floodplain of the Shannon gets what they deserve. The clan names are local to parishes and your facile suggestions equate to ethnic cleansing from the domains in which those people have existed for centuries. You have drinking the cool if from the Green Party who style themselves environmentalists for too long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    So let's be clear, you are not interested in an unspoiled rural Ireland, you are interested in a rural Ireland where some people can take all the spoils and not be interfered with by pesky lowborn urban types who don't deserve enough water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    So let's be clear based on your taunting…you are a troll shilling for those who will gain from exploitation of the Shannon. Isn't that a fair conclusion to arrive at?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,242 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    The mask has slipped badly there, this is the attitude we see all over the country and it holds us back in so many areas. Nimbyism at its finest on display.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    That looked to be solely for the purpose of supplying Athlone as 9m gallons per day is nowhere near the current proposal. But it goes to show the locals are so militant they don't even want to supply themselves!

    To answer the question (again), the creation of Ardnacrusha formed the biggest reservoir (parteen/Derg/everything above it) already so putting the pipe there maybe makes a bit of sense in terms of most reserves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,329 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Sorry, you're right I posted the wrong link.

    Two different proposals.

    This is the "Dublin" one -

    'War' threat over bid to take lake water | Irish Independent https://share.google/Cs87qdheAOrxRfgw2



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Don't bother, they're clearly just a troll who have offered nothing to the discussion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Ah ok, thanks, that was 2007 though, a lot of water under the fridge since then.



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