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General British politics discussion thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,628 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Very noticeable that there hasn't been a single arrest in Trump-land despite literally hundreds of Americans being referenced in the Epstein files. But one wonders who long that can continue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hearing rumours that Starmer has delayed the legislation for the handing ovehotge Chagos islands on hold, another day another u-turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Probably for at least as long as he can drag out whatever conflict he has in mind with respect to Iran. It's a horrible world when you realize there's probably people alive in Iran right now who might not be this time next week partly because of Trumps desire to detract from the acts that he and other very powerful and connected people carried out for decades. And that the DoJ, FBI, DoD and the Republican side of Congress are aware of this and are doing what they can to help protect him. It will be interesting to see if any of these people who are being arrested and charged will look to bring others down with them.

    I really think Labour haven't gotten rid of him yet because they want him to carry the can through the local elections. It's incredible to think how many U-turns his government has done given the majority they entered parliament with less than 2 years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,210 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Apparently the UK has told America it can't use its UK bases to launch attacks on Iran, no wonder donny is having a hissy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭Randycove


    I was listening to LBC this morning and apparently the Chagosian government in exile is vehemently opposed to them being handed to Mauritius. They want it to remain a British overseas territory, but with their return permitted. I presume they would also want to retain their British citizenship as well.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,628 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I would normally be a big critic of Starmer's but if it's true he has told Trump to "do one", he would deserve a lot credit for it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It is an absurdly stupid "deal" with no basis in either law or morality and I have no clue why successive British governments have been moving ahead with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    because britain's occupation of it and split of it from moritious was and is illegal.
    but they also want to keep the military base there so they can pretend they are still a billy big military super power.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    deleted

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    they can retain their british citizenship as long as britain is agreeable to it, which quite frankly they have an obligation to be so given britain stole their homeland.
    however the territory cannot remain an over seas british teritory as it's not british in the first place but is illegally occupied.
    so the options are it goes to moritious which international law says it has to, or it goes to the chagotian government in exile with a deal with them to keep the military base, and allow the right of return which is legally required.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    There is no connection between the Chagos and Mauritius apart from a coincidence of being in the same British colonial administration district. Mauritius never had anything to do with it. There was and is also no legal framework against Britain's original ownership.

    The Chagossian people are being completely ignored in all this and Mauritius doesnt care about them. It is nothing more than transferring from one colonial power to a less benevolent one. Its a disaster for everyone except Mauritius.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,288 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The claim from Mauritius was scrutinised by international courts and found to be valid, in what way are you saying their claim is invalid?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The international court had no jurisdiction for one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The UK government accepted the icjs decision so I think that is powerful endorsement of that decision. I haven't heard a persuasive argument anywhere that this decision isn't valid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,288 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    So you claim it was invalid on a technicality, I was expecting something stronger than that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    there is a connection, the islands were administered from moritious both before and during colonisation.
    it is illegal for a colonial power to split off territory from a colony which is gaining it's independance, therefore britain has no claim to the islands and therefore the islands are illegally occupied.
    the chagotian people are being ignored yes, by not being allowed to return to their homeland and to rule themselves, but unfortunately moritious has a legitimate claim under international law to be the ruler.
    but the people can still be allowed to return and that must be facilitated as per international legal obligations.
    the deal is a good deal for everyone bar the islanders and in reality even if moritious doesn't care about them, they do care more then the british empirial power does.
    britain is not a real military super power anymore and is just running on air and pretending it is while it's country goes down the toilet so it does not need over seas bases and territories anymore.
    america doesn't need the base either but it still gets to use it so it has no complaint.
    the islands have to go, as do the malvinas and gibraltar ETC.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    that doesn't matter seeing as the claim by moritious is legally valid and the claim by britain is bogus.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    When were the administered from Mauritius before colonisation? The islands were uninhabited before colonialisation.

    The connection between Mauritius and the Chagos Islands is nothing more than a French and British administrative quirk. The native inhabitants of the island (who were shamefully removed by the British) want nothing whatsoever to do with this deal as they know the islands being ruled by Mauritius is even worse for them than by the British.

    No doubt you will next be claiming the Falklands aren't actually British…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The UN, Uk and icj seemed to agree with this argument. On the other side only appears to be the Tories and Trump. And I guess random posters on the Internet.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The UN, UK and ICJ don't appear to care whatsoever about what the islands actual inhabitants feel about the matter, so I'm not sure why I should give much truck to their opinion. They are fine being British overseas territory citizens they just want to go home. Mauritius won't allow them to do that anymore than the British will. They have no interest in being Mauritians though. No one appears to care whatsoever about what the Chagossians think in any of this.

    Legally it is clear that everything was a non-binding judgement so the UK is not obliged to do anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The UN , ICJ, and UK were perhaps trying to come up with a dispassionate decision on a complex issue. I can see that you dont give much truck to their decision as it doesnt agree with yours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,288 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    So the islands were uninhabited before colonisation so who did they belong to at the time?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    That's fair enough. But bringing about the "decolonisation" of a territory by completely ignoring the wishes of its citizens seems prima facie pretty stupid to me, so I stand by my opinion.

    Chagossians don't want to be Mauritians. So demanding they become so, just so another country can rule a territory in a colonial fashion seems fairly bizarre to me.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No one. They were uninhabited.

    The idea that a small island belongs to the nearest large island would, I think, be transparently silly to any Irish people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,288 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    That is a ridiculous comparison as Ireland was inhabited when colonised. You have already admitted that Chagos was uninhabited and belonged to no one when colonised.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    So why on earth should Mauritius for some reason have control of it? If a Western power colonises two places at roughly the same time and administrates them together that means they must forever be entwined legally? It is a nonsensical judgement and while I suspect this backtracking is coming due to influence from the US which is regrettable, it was always an awful path for the UK to plough (one that started under the Tories, so it isn't a partisan thing).

    There is little in the judgement that wouldn't suggest the Falklands should belong to Argentina. The UK was weak to accept a non-binding, and nonsensical judgement in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    none of that matters, the moritian connection has been shown to be just and legal.
    correct, the malvinas and gibraltar ETC are not british.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the Uk has to give up it's illegal occupation regardless of whether a judgement is legally binding or not, as legal fact trumps something being legally binding.
    the UK had to accept the judgement otherwise it would be illegally occupying a territory and holding to ransom territory that does not belong to it when they need to be fully sunsetting the empire.
    getting out of illegally occupied over seas territories is a sign of strength not weakness, britain cannot afford to be the empire billy big military super power anymore.
    it's influence in the world is gone, the world order has changed, china russia india and america are the super powers now.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,058 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    So in short, you don't care what the actual Chagossians think? Bit of a weird way of supporting anti-colonialism but ok.

    You are always completely all over the place in terms of whether you think "might is right" is the way of the world or "rules based international order".



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