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Ireland vs Israel - To play or not to play, that is the question Read OP for Mod Warning

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,748 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    You did! Your whole thread as that vibe as if it "will make a difference" etc etc. You started a thread basically about performative activism. Forget the political issues that is what it is about. It will like feck make a diffefence.

    In answer to your question

    "Why are you personally so against action being taken by a quasi-representative organisation of Ireland against a similar representative of a state carrying out a genocide?"

    Because -

    1. It is purely performative and that in itself annoys me regardless of the issue - you are posting to someone who got annoyed when Dublin fans on the hill had a minutes applause for a young Sunderland fan who died of cancer. But he wasn't even Irish no connections to Ireland and lived in Sunderland - yet just just because the EPL made a thing of it. Suddenly some English club soccer fans who where there to support Dublin were cheering for something that had nothing to do with the GAA or Ireland. I can understand a minutes silence in the ground before throw in even (at a push) but it was odd to me.

    2 Re the first point it has nothing to do with Ireland- it is people looking for a "cause" by proxy - then where do draw the line after that?

    3 A precedent will have been set - What gets the next game called off? It will gradually get wider and looser in scope. Everything will be politicised from there on in sport in Ireland. It is not a micky mouse sport like women's basketball. It will have repercussions for Irish sport and future sporting events.

    4 Symbolism will change nothing - It is reminiscent to me of Zellensky in the Ukraine getting fed up of all the nice orations and Russian sanctions from the EU, and basically saying the Ukrainian equivalent of "Ah lads cop on, we need weapons".

    If I was from Palestine I would be quietly bemused / insulte if I met an Irish person supporting my "cause" flag waving would think in Arabic - "Sure as long as he is happy I suppose….." and bite my lip. "Let him keep codding himself."

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You don't know that peoples actions are performative, you're presuming they are.

    You're living a life ignoring the reality of what people are doing and saying and projecting entirely your thought process on the motivations of everyone else.

    But so be it, you're free to do so. But as I've said already, you should be thankful not everyone acts or thinks in this way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,748 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    To me a non-performative action has a positive practical tangible effect - boots on the ground arms etc. Even negotiations at an intergovernmental level to get a peace deal at the other end of the spectrum.

    A performative action is one that is more based solely on symbolism and emotion. It makes no real practical difference.

    That is even before we get into the sincerity question of the performative action. You seem to think that a well meant but ultimately pointless symbolic action that takes little effort can change the world.

    A performative action is bad enough. But an insincere performative action is even worse. How is that projecting surely that is just cold hard logic? So whether it is a sincere performative action or an insincere one. Ultimately to me they are both pointless.

    I could argue you are "projecting" that the Palestines are going to get a massive uplift from these games not going ahead? How do you know they are doing the Gazan equivalent of "So wha?" Are lads going to celebrating running down the streets shouting "Allah akbar, Ireland have called off the games v Israel" in joyus celebrations. Not even a patch to the when Parrot got his late goal v Hungary?

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Fair dues to try to debate someone that thinks you are insincere. Its a lost cause though, there is no logical argument that can persuade someone that doesnt believe you are genuine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    A performative action is one that is more based solely on symbolism and emotion. It makes no real practical difference.

    Every protest, on every topic throughout history coukd be dismissed in the same way.

    Thankfully, they weren't.

    And yet despite the centuries of evidence as to the benefit of such acts, you suggest it is cold hard logic to determine they are insincere and pointless.

    The facts dont support your logic.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,748 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Incorrect (who is projecting now?) there are real practical actions as I have already said where there is real consequence for those protesting - lost of life, or so strong are their convictions that they go on huger strike, or like the monk who once set himself on fire. At least that have real consequence. OK they actually GAVE their fullest it wasn't a performative move without any effort.

    To me calling off a few football matches is just a step above some lad born and bred in Dingle changing his boards.ie icon to the original Free Ukrainian Donetsk state flag. Is backed by centuries of evidence? Changing a social media icon takes no effort

    So you are arrogantly equating a calling off two football matches between Ireland and Israel as backed up by "centuries" of evidence? In the history of soccer is it?

    That doesn't sound a bit hyperbolic or naive to you at all in any way?

    It is noticeable in all your posts you have yet to articulate HOW calling off these matches will bring any tangible real benefit?

    I think it is more for the people protesting so they can pat each other on the back and think what a great set of lads they are. Grand you are an idealist I get it. But jayus you seem to have a very high opinion of ANY form of symbolism. Even if it is symbolism for symbolism sake. With little or no consequence for the protesters.

    Roy Keane agrees with me remember in Qatar the English/Wales players were all high and mighty about the one love armbands. Once the captain's were told they would get a yellow they abandoned it like rats on a ship. Keane said you take the yellow - if you believe in it there has to be consequence.

    He was spot on, otherwise it is meaningless with no sincerity.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It is noticeable in all your posts you have yet to articulate HOW calling off these matches will bring any tangible real benefit?

    Already detailed in post #121

    Roy Keane agrees with me remember in Qatar the English/Wales players were all high and mighty about the one love armbands. Once the captain's were told they would get a yellow they abandoned it like rats on a ship. Keane said you take the yellow - if you believe in it there has to be consequence.

    Footballers already got a lot of stick for any sort of action that was perceived by a certain sector of society as being woke. If one of them got a yellow card for this, then got sent off, the footballer would be castigated for jeopardizing their teams chances.

    But on the topic of same sex acceptance within the football environment, a couple of weeks ago a German match official proposed to his boyfriend on the pitch, a few days later 3 men attacked him and beat him up outside his home.

    So maybe more initiatives must happen to make such relationships acceptable within that sphere. Maybe Roy Keane will lead the effort.

    But with respect to this thread, I would prefer if the FAI made the decision to not fulfil the fixture (they have already said they will) I wouldn't put it on the shoulders of any individual to act in a particular way, but I would have a lot more respect for players who may themselves refuse to play or show their displeasure in some other way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    This picture is both why Ireland should act to protest Israel's actions in Palestine, and why some people say it is pretty much pointless them doing so.

    image.png

    The guy in the picture is the head of FIFA, Gianni Infantino and where he is is sitting on the stage at the first meeting of Donald Trump's Board of Peace abomination. The two people in the picture are a sign of the company he is happy to keep not to mention the person who he went out of his way to arrange a fake Nobel knock off prize for last year who is likely going to launch an attack on Iran as soon as this weekend.

    Hundreds of Palestinian footballers have been killed by Israel, thousands more have lost limbs and suffered other injuries and this guy is happy to be part of the facade of what is happening those people. It's because of things like this that I would agree that Ireland and the FAI should act.

    So I expect if Ireland do act to protest against Israel, all they will get from the FIFA side is condemnation and pressure on UEFA to hold Ireland to account as much as possible.

    Also, this pic shuts down entirely the "keep politics out of sport" argument, that's one benefit you could say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,806 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    None of that is a reason for Ireland to self sabotage themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It's another part of the discussion.

    It doesn't justify anything on it's own, whether they play the game or not, but it should be considered in the thought process around the game.

    I just listened to Eamon Dunphy talk on the topic and he said Ireland shouldn't play the game, but that the decision shouldn't have to be made by the FAI or the Irish players. He said the likes of FIFA and primarily UEFA should have acted to remove Israel from international competition.

    The above shows just how abandoned and mistreated the Palestinians have been and right now Ireland is effectively contemplating if we are going to take a stand to help them, or protect ourselves for having done so.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,697 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Has anyone explained yet what calling off the game will do to help the people of Palestine.

    I know how it will negatively impact the people of Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Post #121

    It may encourage other countries to do similar leading to more widespread calls for UEFA to act, which if they did, may lead to FIFA. IOC etc coming under serious pressure, which may lead to national goverments recognizing the feeling towards Israel which may lead to them demanding they stop and be held accountable.

    Wishful thinking? Yes, absolutely, but every positive outcome in societal change started in that way.

    And even if none of this ultimately happened, the Palestinians may take support in knowing at least 1 country stood up for them. That's not insignificant for a country struggling as they are.

    And to add to that post, FIFA banned Russia after first Poland (I think) and then Sweden and Czech Republic refused to play in light of their invasion of Ukraine.

    I could negatively impact some people in Ireland, but I think it would positively impact more people from a simple headcount perspective being proud of the country taking such a stand. I'm not discounting those who would be negatively impacted, as Eamon Dunphy said on a podcast this week, the decision shouldn't be put on the shoulders of the Irish team or FAI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,806 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Sure we wouldnt even get our group to pull out, nevermind inspiring some Spartacus nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,285 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    It will serve zero purpose and have zero impact on the conflict and troubles in Gaza our pulling out of this game. It’s virtue signaling at an incredibly pompous and arrogant level. The levels of Palestine/gaza obsession with some Irish people is weird.

    The conflict is at peace, or at least on its way, but we still want to take sides, slate and boycott. It’s actually counter-productive to bringing about peace!! Instead of trying to broker harmony and relationships…But that’s because we’re obsessed with taking one side here!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Sure we wouldnt even get our group to pull out, nevermind inspiring some Spartacus nonsense.

    I'd say if you were around in 1940 you'd have been outraged that the World Cup was cancelled.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,806 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Did you just try to compare Gaza to a feckin WORLD war?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The conflict is at peace, or at least on its way, but we still want to take sides, slate and boycott.

    Since the conflict came to be "at peace", over 600 Palestinians have been killed by Israel, Palestinians are restricted from free movement within Gaza, aid is inhibited from being delivered and Trump and his band of miscreants are meeting to decide how to divvy up Palestinian territory.

    Bear in mind, about 400 Israeli non-military people were killed on Oct 7th and everything that has happened apparently has been justified because of that.

    So what do you think should be done, or is it ok if Israel kills a couple hundred Palestinians every month or so, in your view?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The fact that you don't see the comparison for the people of Gaza is telling me everything I need to know about where you stand in all of this.

    I'm not going to get in to it here, there's a dedicated thread for the conflict.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,806 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Yes desperate strawmen have no business here.

    If it was possible to convince Austria and Kosovo to join us in this magical boycott it MIGHT have forced something. But Kosovo would never in a million years so its just pointless stupidity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,285 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    nobody is saying it’s ok to kill anyone, but here is the issue: there are folks here that are so hell bent on taking sides, that if 2-3 Palestinians were killed (for whatever reasons/situations) per month they’d be still beating the Israel-genocide drum.

    It’s way way more to do with being anti-Israel than being all loving and inclusive and peaceful.

    So this absolute nonsense that we shouldn’t play a soccer match against a country that is legally entitled to compete is in my view way more an anti Israel stance than a pro-peace stance!!

    Post edited by walshb on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,697 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Have you evidence of any other countries drawn against Israel that are talking about boycotting their games?

    I would imagine the other teams in the group would be delighted if we boycotted the games because they would benefit from it.

    We seem to have some weird thinking that we are important on the world stage.

    Like the Palestine people are going to rejoice that Ireland refused to play a game of football, they probably won't even hear about it.

    They have more important things to worry about than an Irish game of football.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    It will have no impact whatsoever.

    It's primary purpose is to allow performative virtue-signallers feel good about themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,285 ✭✭✭✭walshb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Again - See Russia v Poland for reference.

    You may disagree with it, that doesn't change the facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Someone has to be the first to make a move/take a stand.

    The conversation has to start somewhere.

    You and the rest of the guys don't have to agree with Ireland taking action, but all of you seem to be arguing from some sort of non-realistic stand point, which is curious. Seems to me to indicate lack of definitive logical objections to justify this conversation not taking place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,152 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    The world in general at the moment is a shitshow between the Isreal genocide, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the lunacy across the Atlantic threatning all sorts of stuff daily which people are also worried about. Can we not switch off for a couple of hours and watch a soccer match and forget about lifes worries for a while. Let the game go ahead IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You're not wrong about the state of the world, and the role sport can play in to detract from that.

    But this is being considered solely because of Israel being the opponent. It would be much easier if we hadn't been chosen to play them, but here we are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    For anyone interested, Eamon Dunphy spoke on the Independent Sports podcast with Joe Molloy on this topic this week.

    I won't spoil it for people interested in listening themselves but it is worth a listen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,697 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    I and others are being realistic.

    This will not positively impact Palestine.

    This will negatively impact Ireland.

    You have not provided any evidence that this will do anything to help the people of Palestine.

    Bizarre to say others are not being realistic when all you have is ifs and maybes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,697 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    Have no doubt that a lot of the people calling for the game to be off will be delighted if it goes ahead.

    It will give them a day out and the chance to cause trouble.



This discussion has been closed.
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