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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    It's strange how the perception of Prendegast replacing Crowley is assumed to be because of poor form. The Autumn 2024 internationals against NZ he had a good first half then tailed off in the 2nd half before being called to shore. It was an average performance but certainly not poor. He was then very good against Argentina. Then when he went back to Munster i thought individually he was ok and i can remember one game he was excellent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I am 100% sure that Farrell would ask his coaches their opinions, but the original point was that Prendergast's issues were a reflection on the "Farrell/Sexton coaching ticket" (there is no such thing) and the follow-up question was, wouldn't it be weird if Sexton thought Crowley was the better player but Farrell was picking Prendergast? I don't think that would be weird at all. You'll always have differing opinions within a staff but the buck stops with Farrell. And it's worth noting that Sexton had a lot more experience of playing and training with Crowley than with Prendergast.

    For all we know, he's relentlessly bigging up Crowley and he's been undermining Prendergast's confidence and that's why his head is shot to pieces. Is that likely? Of course not, but that never stops any of the other bonkers theories we hear here.

    Sexton calling the shots and putting Prendergast in the team fits a certain perspective very nicely. That does not make it true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,640 ✭✭✭Felexicon


    Ah, I've taken your post out of context without looking further back in the conversation.

    My bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I don't think that's why Prendergast replaced Crowley - I think it's more the inherent weaknesses in Crowley's game were why Farrell has continued to consider other options (including Frawley & Byrne too).

    Crowley played largely well when introduced on Saturday (certainly better than Prendergast had played), but it was very much more of the same from him. When the game is helter skelter and broken up, it seems to suit Crowley's skillset better.

    It is clear as day at this point - 3.5 years since Crowley's debut for Ireland - that while Farrell saw enough talent there to elevate him from Munster's third choice 10 to the Irish squad, that Crowley is not doing something Farrell wants him to do to establish himself as the Irish 10.

    To me, there is no other credible argument for why Crowley isn't getting selected. It's not about provincial BS or Sexton or Goodman's influence or anything else. It's on Crowley not delivering what Farrell wants of him.

    He'll get another chance this weekend, and let's see if he's figured it out.

    I honestly don't GAF who is the Irish 10, so long as one of them emerges as a viable top tier 10 we can plan around for the long term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,599 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It's not strange at all. It's a straight up fabrication and the people saying it know that.

    Just trying to reconsider Farrell's decision last year and their vocal support of it as anything other than a mistake.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,554 ✭✭✭OldRio


    The idea of a Farrell and Sexton conspiracy is tin foil hat stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I mean, a figure like Greg Feek would help but we haven’t had Feek since 2019 and our scrum seems to have collapsed the last 18 months. It makes no sense given the players available, it’s clear they just don’t take the scrum seriously.


    I think a 6-2 works perfectly fine for Ireland now as Ireland have many versatile backs, what we need if we are doing a 6-2 split is have 2 SR’s on the bench. That is Beirne and Edogbo.


    I know the part about opening the play book but at the same time, it’s clear Ireland are evolving from that style so it might be questionable how much Farrell actually let on, he would be quite foolish if he gave them a carbon copy of the Irish game plan to work with. What is know for sure is Farrell will definitely have an insight into players strengths/weaknesses and what game plan works best against these players, weather that’s more (or less) than the advantage Ireland will get from his knowledge of the players is the real question here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I assume everyone in the Ireland coaching set-up wants the best team on the field.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Whilst Prendergast has not been playing well of late and definitely appears to have low confidence , most of the people screaming and shouting abuse at him would be the same ones who in 18 months time if we were to arrive at the World Cup with Crowley on ~50 caps and his backup with only a handful of starts again tier 2 teams, will be screaming about how the Coaches had failed to build depth!!

    As others have said , there are 16/17 games left between now and the World Cup. We absolutely MUST get games into as many options as possible - Some of those won't work out , some will need time to develop and that might mean we lose a few games as those players find their feet.

    But honestly - If the trade off for getting to a Semi-final or Final of the World cup is a couple of 3rd place finishes in the 6N's and losing some Autumn international games over the next year or so , then so be it..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He didn't have a good first half against NZ. He was a non-entity. He passed the ball 8 times in that entire match. 8 times! He ran with it another 4 and kicked something like 4 or 5 times (including at least one straight into touch as I recall). Those are astoundingly low numbers for a flyhalf. And from what we have seen the exact opposite of what Farrell is looking for. Joe Molloy was discussing this and went back and checked all the ratings (for what they are worth) and he averaged out at a 5. It wasn't an awful performance, but absolutely was poor.

    He had an excellent game for Munster in January, but he was having a torrid season there until then (not really his fault with the Rowntree fiasco).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭letsbefair


    England gone 6-2. Pollock starts, Freeman on the wing, strong team



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,966 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    So who do you think is the better of the two?

    Do you think somebody else should get an opportunity?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,288 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    That would be fine if we were doing that and I said that last year when Prendergast was struggling. If Farrell had said it was about preparing for the WC and getting as much experience into as much of the playing pool I dont think there'd have been half the furore.

    But we havent. If we were why are we seeing Gibson-Park still playing everygame instead of combinations of Casey/Doak/Murphy/Blade to establish who is where in the pecking order?

    I only picked scrum half because that was easy as its not decimated by injuries currently compared to prop/lock but even if fit we should have left the likes of Furlong/Porter/Henderson/Sheehan/Aki/Hansen/Keenan out of the 23's to give more minutes to McCarthy/Postelwaite/McCarthy/Edogbo/Baloucoune/Farrell et al.

    But its only apparently being used for one position while relying on the usuals elsewhere. If we had spent 2 years going all in on expanding the pool before refining it in the World Cup run in I doubt anyone would be upset as it would be clear what was happening.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    There isn’t a trade off, this is the mindset France had in 2023 and England in 2015…


    Giving up games just to “learn about players” gets you nowhere in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Seem to have gone down the exact same route as Italy/France in picking a mobile pack over a power one…in other words laying traps we will undoubtedly fall into.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    We were winning at half-time. I must watch the game back to see what he did/didnt do. The usual shuffle the ball to Aki and let him truck it up the middle didnt work. NZ knew what we'd do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭phog


    We were winning when he went off but a lot of the loss seems to be attributed to him, even though we had far more experienced players playing like drains that game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    Crowley was terrible in that game (and he was terrible) but Frawley managed to come on and be even worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Stakes just got higher. Pollock starts. Please, please dont lose this one.

    Curry also starts.

    ENGLAND (v Ireland): Freddie Steward, Tommy Freeman, Ollie ‌Lawrence, Fraser Dingwall, Henry Arundell; George Ford, Alex Mitchell; Ellis ​Genge, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Heyes; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Henry Pollock.

    Replacements: Jamie George, Bevan Rodd, Trevor Davison, Alex Coles, Guy Pepper, Sam Underhill, Jack van Poortvliet, Marcus Smith.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Ollie Lawrence a big inclusion too. Freeman has been good the last two weekends in attack, but felt the Scots exposed him defensively quite a few times last week. Lawrence is a real handful though.

    It's a strong pack - very dangerous backrow, and I think Chessum is an excellent player at lock. They were shite last week, and play a limited gameplan, but they're a seriously formidable side and will be very hard to beat at Twickenham.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Yep Chessum is an excellent all rounder. Its a very good backrow, still a bit surprised they've dropped Underhill to the bench.

    Think McCarthy,Ryan; vdF, Conan, Doris is a better starting team to counter the pace and power of their backrow. Beirne and Izuchukwu on the bench.

    They were always going to move Freeman back to the wing for this game. Which is disapointing. I thought Baloucoune could expose him at 13. Lawernce put some holes through Ireland last year.

    I hope Ireland dont revert to the ridiculous kick heavy strategy used in Paris.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes, NZ were not great in that period. Now, Frawley came on and was outright awful but you will never, ever see me advocate for him to play another second at 10 for Ireland or Leinster. He can dine off his heroics in South Africa forever but he is never going to be a 10.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    While every said here isn’t wrong, it doesn’t really change anything for me. We need to focus on our own game and what works for us, if we start picking a team to counter England’s style then we are already falling into their trap.


    1. Loughman 2. Sheehan/Kelleher 3. Furlong

    4. McCarthy 5. Ryan

    6. Izuchukwu 7. Doris 8. Conan

    9. JGP 10. Crowley

    11 Lowe 12. McCloskey 13. Ringrose 14. Baloucoune

    15 Osborne


    16 Kelleher/Sheehan 17. O’Toole 18 Clarkson 19 Edogbo 20 Beirne 21 VDF 22 Casey 23 Prendergast


    That team would give us every chance


    My fear is our issues in regards to physicality are psychological, we had on paper a more powerful pack than France/Italy yet still got bullied, if that happens then that tells my the issue are more psychological in which case no selection change will solve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭bingobango12


    Ollie Lawrence back in also is a big plus for them.

    That back row are all big turnover threats and all carry hard. Bar George and Underhill that is a weak bench though.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's what I'd pick but I don't think it matters if we can't get our forwards playing with more aggression and pace. They did it in fits and starts against Italy but it was by no means consistent.

    I'd possibly ditch VDF from the bench and put a 5/3 not really sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Oddly enough Sexton has come out in support of all 4 potential out-halves. Now if Prendergast had turned into the new messiah at out-half Farrell and Sexton would be flogging him right now and all the way through the RWC. The only reason the below is being mentioned now is that all 4 are similarily average and this suits the narrative...

    "Johnny Sexton says Ireland are trying to learn from criticism of previous World Cup cycles when they relied too heavily on just one out-half [him].

    He says Ireland want to get more game time into Prendergast, Crowley, Frawley, and Byrne at 10"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Utah_Saint


    I honestly don't think Sheehan has earned his place based on his performances so far this 6n. If we are serious about finding new options and combos it should be Kelleher to start with Stewart on the bench. JPG to start with Doak on the bench.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, coaches will say whatever nonsense to control the narrative. I find Farrell refreshingly honest for the most part, but he doesn't owe us the full truth of his selections and we are never going to get it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Please enlighten me as to the benefit of sacrificing a shot at the 6 Nations (which we have proved we can win) for an appearance in the WC semi final (a tournament we are highly unlikely ever to win). I cannot fathom this line of thinking. I think people like me (who supported Ireland through barren decades) want to see our best team fielded all the time. If a youngster shows better than the incumbent, pick him then.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I agree with that, it doesn’t matter the pack of the top 2 inches aren’t there. Tbh, I haven’t been impressed with Ireland in any of the previous 5 games versus England so they will need to step it up this time.


    Nah, 6-2 is the way to go. The more impact the better.



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