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Shannon water for Dublin

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I didn't raise the issue, I said shutting down reference to the foolishness of it was not appropriate here.

    It is easier to supply water from the Shannon than to dig up the whole of Dublin to find out where the leaks are.

    That is a horrendously bad justification for the project.

    So what, we waste water eternally because we don't want the effort of finding the leaks? Nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Why is it that virtually every engineer says that even if we fixed every single leak, (and there has already been significant progress on leakage reduction) Dublin would still require a new source like Shannon Water? Are they all wrong?

    It’s like refusing to build a new power station because there’s energy waste in the grid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    All public buildings and some private too (if possible) should be fitted with rainwater harvesting. If 'and it's an if' the Dublin area's water needs exceed supply what is the lesson from that?

    It means development needs to be moved from that area to other area(s) that have the space water etc. Not spending Billions probably 12Bn on a project that may have as others said unintended consequences.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    This project may be needed, I'm not saying it isn't. I am saying a few things with respect to it.

    A - No waste should be shrugged off

    B - The greater Dublin area with respect to the % of the population of the country versus the % area of the country is a problem. For everyone, inside and outside this area. Higher house prices, worse traffic, more demand on resources (as per your point). More focus on serving the needs of this area meaning others are under resourced.

    C - This isnt a poll asking Yes or No to this project. This is a discussion, the above points (amongst others) are relevant in the context of the thread title. I think we all agree Ireland is poor at strategic planning and delivery of infrastructure, id rather not just accept that but instead consider at least wishing we could improve in this area. To have any hope of that, there needs to be discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    There's no doubt whatsoever about it, it's 100% needed, let there be no "may be needed" or any ambiguity regarding that. That's A, B and C!

    Thankfully the waste is being addressed, with a lot of the leads fixed already. Leakage reduction absolutely has to continue. But even if we reduced leakage to best in class European levels, the modelling still shows the Greater Dublin Area will outstrip supply within the coming decades.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The Lower River Shannon is a legally protected Natura 2000 site. Concerns exist that extracting up to 330 million litres of water daily will disrupt the ecological balance of this sensitive area, which is vital for various species listed on Annex 1 of the EU Habitat Directive.

    This project is set to cost the state even before a sod is turned through the courts and the EU. Find another way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Good point. Grants for public and private buildings to be fitted with rainwater harvesting in the Greater Dublin Area, particularly for toilet flushing in addition to the Shannon water to Dublin project (we have established it's needed).

    Development will not be "moved" anywhere when we get the water sorted. We tried decentralisation in 2003 and it didn't work. Economic gravity always pulls back to Dublin. The Greater Dublin Area dominates because it has built critical mass over decades. It is home to the headquarters of multinationals, a powerful financial services cluster in the International Financial Services Centre, the core government departments, major universities such as Trinity College Dublin and University College Dublin, and the largest teaching hospitals in the country.

    That concentration creates agglomeration effects. Once enough decision makers, capital, talent and infrastructure are in one place, it becomes more efficient to stay clustered than to disperse.

    You can move desks. You cannot easily move ecosystems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,792 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    330 million litres sounds like an awful lot, until you realise it's 1% of the daily flow rate at Parteen.

    The volume of water absolutely isn't an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Why is it horrendously bad?

    If it costs €60bn to dig up all of Dublin to find all the leaks and €5bn to bring the water from the Shannon, which should we do?

    And remember, you would have to dig up and replace every single pipe going to any house built before 2010 to eliminate all the leaks. You only find the leaks by digging up the pipes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭db


    The planned flow rate at the start is 1.0-1.5 m³/sec. That is up to 15% of the water through the old river channel on a normal day. The annual average rate is irrelevant here, the concerns are about what will happen during a drought when Dublin needs water but the Shannon only has enough water for the minimum flow rates in the river and the canal.

    The only solution will be to drop the water level in Lough Derg and that will encourage algae like has been seen in Lough Neagh.

    Also, as Dublin expands further and needs more water, the easy solution will be to extract more water from the Shannon.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Sounds like a Dublin first and only policy. It wasn't economic gravity but lack of will. The decentralisation experiment was hamstrung from the off fought by senior civil servants in Dublin and not taken seriously. They gererally sent on relatively junior staff down the country and in some cases some were sent back to Dublin over time.

    In any case this project will also be also hamstrung with court cases and challenges.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    No, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, Offaly, Westmeath, Longford, Roscommon and Leitrim all use Shannon Water. Further more the Shannon to Dublin pipeline will be sending water to a lot more counties than Dublin so it's not Dublin first and it's not Dublin only.

    This was explained to you in detail, numerous times by numerous people on the last thread.

    Regarding decentralisation? People didn't want to move out of Dublin, end of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,792 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    That is up to 15% of the water through the old river channel on a normal day.

    I don't know what you mean by the 'old river channel', the water will be taken from the lake at Ballina AFAIK which is upstream from the old channel.

    1% is the correct number, up to a maximum of 2%.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Not trying to be pedantic for the sake of it, but if the projection for the need for the pipeline is demand in future decades, then it is not 100% that it is needed.

    But lets go with that, that the Dublin Area will have the increased demand in 10/20/30 years or whatever the models say. But would it not be better for the country as a whole if it was the case where Dublin Area demand didn't grow as projected but instead other regions of the country saw growth instead? This is a genuine question.

    (Disclaimer - Yes, I know other areas have infrastructure issues also, but I'm asking this from a long term planning perspective)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Whatever anyone says it's about Dublin and continued growth. Many of those decentralised did want to move out of Dublin and did so.

    It would be better if the capital was in say Athlone to take the pressure off the Dublin region. Where is this expansion going to end a giant Dublin and the rest of the country as a small appendage?

    https://www.nenaghguardian.ie/2025/03/06/councillors-oppose-shannon-pipe-project/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭autumnalcore


    Where are you getting 0.2%.

    Irish water themselves say its 2% of the average flow at Parteen Basin (180m3/s)

    The proposed maximum extraction is up to 3.47m3/s. Historically flow at parteen has been as low as 10m3/s in drought - times when there would simultaneously be a maximum demand for Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,348 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Starting point is a desire/interest/recognition of the benefit (for everyone) in thinking this way.

    Pumping water from the Shannon to Dublin, reducing the passenger cap at Dublin Airport, building a new national hospital in Dublin City centre are all ideas/projects, completely looking in the opposite direction.

    Dublin should serve the country as it's capital, not have the whole country serve the capital with its resources.

    Even with a change in mindset as I am talking about, a pipeline from the Shannon to Dublin might still be needed, but the tilt towards the Dublin area in most things strategic for the country is excessive, and damaging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Here is a report in German about those served by the Spree looking to take water from the Elbe. If everything wasn't so Dublin centric here there would be similar debate with rights of those who live outside the capital city considered.

    Both rivers are under pressure.

    https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/streit-ums-wasser-warum-die-elbe-die-spree-retten-soll-100.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    FYI the raw geography lends itself to Dublin (or at least the east coast) being the 'hub' of Ireland, though I fully agree there is plenty could be done to rebalance that, but would need some relatively dictatorial central planning and a radically different leadership than current governance to do it.

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭db


    The old river channel is through Castleconnell which for most of the year runs at 10 m³/sec. The water will be taken from the reservoir above the weir which controls the flow into the river and canal. During the wetter months this isn't a problem but when the demand is greatest during a summer drought the levels in Lough Derg already have to be carefully managed by keeping the flow in the river and canal at the minimum for both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    I asked this question in the other thread and never got an answer. Has lough derg been disconnected from the rest of the Shannon above it since I was last there?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,792 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I ain't no hydrological engineer but is the point of the reservoir in Kildare not precisely so we don't have to keep pumping water regardless of the river levels?

    This is all scaremongering being thrown around by people with their own agendas, that Limerick and Tipp will be barren wastelands so the Jackeens can keep their lawns manicured.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    To extend a phrase it's nothing more than angry man yells at cloud from parish pump.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Here is where the Colorado river ends due to over exploitation

    In February 2026 you would not imagine it happening to the Shannon but if the climate becomes drier it very well could happen and then neither the inhabitants along the course of the ariver or Dubliners would be happy.

    https://i.imgur.com/TXR9C3b.jpeg



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Finally a bit of levity!

    If Ireland looks like that in the near future I'll give you the money myself 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭autumnalcore


    You don't have to be a hydrological engineer to read the report: https://www.water.ie/sites/default/files/2025-01/WSP_Project-Summary-Report_No-ExSum_250102_WEB.pdf

    An no the proposed reservoir is 75Ml which is 6 hours worth of water at the proposed extraction rates its there for balancing / short term storage to handle fluctuating demand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭tppytoppy


    Isn't the centre of Antarctica technically a desert.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,508 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Hilarious.

    The Colorado is chronically over allocated. Almost 80% of the flow goes to agriculture, almost 20% of the flow to municipal and industrial use in a hot, arid climate. Demand exceeds supply and in many years it barely reaches the sea.

    The Shannon flows through one of the wettest climates in Europe, with consistent Atlantic rainfall and no structural over allocation crisis and the country needs a mere 2%!!

    Completely different scale, completely different climate, completely different context.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    I have never seen a more over-the-top comparison than this.

    The limited amount of water being taken from the Shannon may prove very useful in preventing flooding problems over the next few decades.



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