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Nurse Lucy Letby found guilty of murdering seven babies

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Comments

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 19,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Trigger


    Mod: Folks, this thread has gone way off topic, if ye wish to continue discussing the case of FGM please start a thread on it and keep this one to the correct topic going forward



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    No further charges against Lucy Letby, ending a ten year investigation after the original conviction, all previous charges of which a former UK Supreme Court judge believes she was probably innocent.

    The Cheshire police very unusually, have publicly disagreed with the CPS decision.

    I honestly believe the longer an investigation takes, and particularly the longer a trial takes, the more likely a jury will come to an unjust decision to convict. And in this case as the former judge said, the police "vindictively" pursued the prosecution, imo throwing good money after bad.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/d4bfd9e8463dee25

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    So amazingly the same methods of murder that she was found guilty of in the other cases have no merit at all in these ones.

    The house of cards is starting to crumble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭Hangdogroad


    If anythings going to convince me of her innocence its not going to be a Netflix doc, bearing in mind manipulative, misleading trash like Making A Murderer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I'm starting on the Netflix documentary now. I will reserve opinion until I finish it.

    There seems to be serious doubts about this conviction.

    Edit: Dr Shoo Lees report argues there were no murders, but there were misdiagnoses of the health of several babies. Also there were staffing problems at the Countess of Chester Hospital. He said that babies that were diagnosed as healthy after birth were not.

    A doctor in the documentary disagrees with Lee's findings, but admits the hospital lacked staff.

    Reports that authorities have opened a corporate manslaughter investigation into that hospital. Also that they have uncovered another 9 deaths but are not charging Lucy Letby with them.

    The main evidence against her is:

    • Her writing before the arrests that she was was evil and "killed them". However she explains that as what people were saying about her, rather than what she had done. The notes also include words like " slander".
    • I think her constantly saying "no comment" to police interview questions, including until later on about her notes, also didn't help her case.
    Post edited by Ozymandius2011 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Referencing the docu mentioned above, a former master of the Coombe maternity hospital and UCD professor "has no doubts" that she is innocent, writing in today's IT.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2026/02/11/chris-fitzpatrick-lucy-letby-case-should-be-a-warning-to-other-maternity-hospitals/

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,418 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    The " expert " Dewi Evans worried me , he nearly fell over himself volunteering to examine the evidence . He enjoyed the limelight a bit too much and many of his findings were disputed by others



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭midlander12


    I imagine her solicitor advised her to answer with 'no comment'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I read an article by a legal person explaining that innocent people are making a massive mistake when they assume that the best thing to do is always to cooperate with questioning. Because you think the police are trying to find out if you're innocent, whereas they're trying to find someone who might be guilty. So what seems like a perfectly acceptable explanation to you might still be problematic for reasons you don't even know (because you don't have all the information) and - and this was the real problem - because once you've said something under questioning, it becomes evidence that can be used against you.

    So "no comment" is often the safest thing to say.

    (Sorry no link, it was a long time ago. I just remember it because I would have done exactly what I described above: assumed that being innocent, cooperation would be the best way to demonstrate that.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Possibly James Duane 'Never Talk to the Police'?

    Don't Talk to the Police - YouTube

    Long, and obviously US-centric, but the general message applies here and in the UK as well. Basically there is zero upside to talking, but potentially downside.

    edit : From minute 7:58 he lists the reasons.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It was something I read rather than heard, but it may well have been either him or someone who was promoting the same idea. So basically yes: no upside to talking, but potentially real downsides that you're not aware of. They know where they're going with a particular line of questioning - you don't. And they're not looking to prove you innocent, but to solve their case.

    (I'm listening to that now - it's long but really interesting)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I've listened to the first 20 minutes, and it wasn't the same person: I THINK it was based on UK law whereas that lecture is about the 5th amendment. (The guy makes an excellent argument BTW that the 5th amendment protects the innocent as well as the guilty, and that people don't realise that. I know I didn't.)

    In the article I did read, there were some very similar points, in particular, that evidence that you give to the police which might have helped you can then become invalid in court (or at least won't be used, I'm not quite sure for the UK system). He said it then becomes hearsay, even though evidence against you given in the same conditions can be used - and I think that's the same thing. It's hard to understand the logic behind that TBF. But presumably these people know what they're saying.

    Anyway, if I wasn't convinced just from my vague memory of an article I once read, I must say I'm entirely convinced by that link. There is enough in common to confirm the argument that you have nothing to gain by talking to the police without a lawyer present, and a lot to lose - even if you're innocent.

    Reminds me of a scene from the series Landman, if anyone has seen that. It's only 6 minutes, but it's worth watching for what it illustrates of this discussion. The whole set-up for a start (he saved his girlfriend from a violent rape, but in his rage he beat the guy to death and finds himself accused of murder) but there are a couple of bits of dialogue that are on point here, eg one about 5'40:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭midlander12


    From my limited knowledge of the case, my understanding is that Letby was in a 'vulnerable' state by the time of her arrest and her solicitor was no doubt worried she would be tricked into a confession.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    ”No comment” was the only option open to her given how her subsequent trial went- given the complexity of medical evidence and the conflicting views on correct approaches etc (in other words doctors differing) - it would have been a “gift” to the prosecution had she elaborated on any of the questions asked



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Public opinion had her guilty before the trial, she never had a chance no matter what she said. Once she was arrested and the cps proceeded to trial her fate was sealed. It's such an unspeakable crime that the general Joe and Mary are always going to lean heavily on the word of 'experts' in the field and never want to be seen to be openly questioning the guilt of the perpetrator, even within the confines of a jury.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,028 ✭✭✭✭sligeach


    Sky News were talking about this article in The Guardian during the papers preview tonight on The Wrap.

    NHS maternity units often cover up harmful errors in childbirth, report finds

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/26/nhs-england-maternity-cover-up-childbirth-report

    Hospitals that cause harm and injury to women and babies during childbirth often resort to a “cover-up” of their mistakes, falsify medical records and deny bereaved parents answers, a damning report has found.

    I know it's childbirth and not the care afterwards, but it made me think of Lucy Letby. I don't believe she's guilty, and that she's the victim of a massive miscarriage of justice. Pun not intended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I don't believe she's guilty, and that she's the victim of a massive miscarriage of justice

    If that is indeed the case, then the miscarriage of justice is so bone chillingly horrific that the truth may never be allowed to get out.

    It will come down to attrition.

    That interim report is beyond shocking. The culture that existed precluded any sort of whistle blowing. Something they are looking to address.

    There will be a separate call for evidence for staff working in NHS maternity and neonatal services. This will be distributed through NHS Trusts. This will be open from Monday 26th January to Monday 9th March 2026.

    Those who no longer work in the maternity or neonatal pathway or in an NHS Trust can contact matneoinvestigation@dhsc .gov.uk if they wish to find out about how to submit evidence.

    Will be interesting to see if anyone from The Countess of Chester Hospital comes forward, particularly those who are now no longer working there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It doesn't really change anything. People are forgetting that hospital managers were arrested for manslaughter due to gross negligence, i.e. the failings cited above might have let her get away with for longer than she should.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    That was last summer, they were released without charge.

    Not saying they won't be charged, but it will be a delicate one for the CPS to prosecute so they don't undermine anything in the Letby case.

    Could well just evaporate into the ether.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I think the issue here, is that the jury convicted her on the evidence presented of the first murder - and then group-thinked their way through the rest of the murder charges, rinsing and repeating as they went.
    That first decision sealed her fate as a serial murderer-but was it the right decision on the first murder count or were they just blinded by the science? Her defence certainly seemed to be severely lacking in many aspects and you would think that they would have challenged each and every piece of evidence which they didn’t.

    I was a juror in a drugs possession related trial a number of years ago- the defence challenged absolutely everything and did their best to sew seeds of doubt, to the degree that some of the suggestions from the defence barrister were simply laughable - but that was him doing his job in what was a very straightforward possession case - I just didn’t see the same defence efforts here at all - it’s as if they sat back and said,” there’s no way any jury will convict on this evidence”- but they did.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    If that actually happened then the jury fundamentally failed in their duty and the oath that they took.
    In MY experience, juries are safe places - but as I said above, I don’t think the defence did enough to counter the evidence and they were relying on the jury to acquit too much - it’s fine viewing the evidence through a legal lens when a judge is presiding over the trial and making the decision - but this was lay people- however the prosecution presented their case, they did enough to convict - the defence didn’t do enough to sew doubt - that’s the way I’m looking at it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭midlander12


    More question marks about the prosecution case:-

    Lucy Letby case expert witness was under fitness-to-practise investigation during trial | Lucy Letby | The Guardian

    A doctor who gave crucial expert evidence about insulin poisoning for the prosecution of the nurse Lucy Letby was under investigation by the medical regulator at the time due to serious concerns about his fitness to practise.

    The General Medical Council (GMC) opened an investigation into concerns about Prof Peter Hindmarsh, including that he had harmed patients, on the first day he gave evidence at Letby’s trial in late 2022.

    The GMC investigation was still continuing when Hindmarsh gave evidence for a second time at the Letby trial three months later. Great Ormond Street hospital reported Hindmarsh to the GMC after a formal investigation led by his main employer, University College London hospitals trust (UCLH).

    The jury in the trial of the nurse, who was convicted of murdering babies in the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit, was never informed about any investigation into Hindmarsh, one of the prosecution’s key witnesses.

    While the GMC conducted its investigation, and during some of the period when Hindmarsh gave evidence, a medical tribunal ordered severe restrictions on his work, saying that he “may pose a real risk” to members of the public. The tribunal also considered the allegations about Hindmarsh “may have the potential to impact on his ability to act as an expert witness”.

    Nevertheless, the tribunal permitted him to continue giving expert evidence for the prosecution of Letby. The Crown Prosecution Service told the defence it would oppose any attempt to inform the jury of the GMC investigation, on the basis that the allegations had not reached a final adjudication.

    Ultimately the GMC investigation was never concluded, because Hindmarsh removed himself from the GMC register, a process known as “voluntary erasure”. That effectively ended the investigation, and there was no regulatory finding against him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Nevertheless, the tribunal permitted him to continue giving expert evidence for the prosecution of Letby. The Crown Prosecution Service told the defence it would oppose any attempt to inform the jury of the GMC investigation, on the basis that the allegations had not reached a final adjudication.

    That's astonishing. They were basically saying - well we don't know whether this guy is a bona fide expert or not, but we're going to let him carry on as if he is.

    It's as much (if not more) an indictment of Letby's defence team to have allowed it.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Not sure how you can blame the defence here. It sounds as if they knew about it and saw it as a potential issue, but were not going to be allowed mention it to the jury. It was possibly something that got decided by the judge behind closed doors, or the defence realised that precedent allowed such experts to continue to give evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    But the quote says the CPS would oppose any attempt to tell the jury, which suggests the defence didn't challenge it with the judge.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,213 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    If it was challenged 'behind closed doors' then we might not know about it as it wouldn't be part of the record?

    Or more likely, if the defence was aware, via long-held precedent, that as long as the GMC tribunal is ok with the expert witness then the judge will not allow the defence to raise the issue of the investigation - if so it would have been pointless for the defence to push it.

    I think it's just more of a situation where the system is inherently biased against the defendant, rather than an actual failure of the defence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Even if the GMC didn't object to his giving evidence, it's hardly their call at the end of the day, or it shouldn't be. It should be the court deciding it. In an ideal world you would think the evidence would not be given until after the GMC proceedings concluded, and in this case, because he voluntarily struck himself off, he would have been given the heave-ho at that point. Or alternatively, the jury could just have been told about the proceedings. Whatever way you look at it, it does look like the system is stacked against the accused.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    Looking at the Times article regarding this the Prosecution learned of the issue after he had given evidence. They informed the Defense they would not oppose them informing the jury but the Defence did not attempt to inform them.

    Likely the allegations had no direct effect on whether his evidence regarding C-peptide and insulin levels was believable or not, and the defence had no rebuttal. A consultant Clinical Scientist also gave evidence for the prosecution regarding C-peptide and insulin levels.

    I've read some murmurings that the allegations were regarding care for people with gender incongruence but I have not seen anything concrete regarding this.

    https://archive.is/aCzwR

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭Yeah Right


    I'm out of the loop…………What was wrong with making a murderer?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 550 ✭✭✭midlander12


    Her defence appears to have been generally fairly poor and I think she now has a new team. However, as others have pointed out, they may have been prevented from mentioning it.



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