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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,873 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    … Attack and set-piece, line-out specifically.

    … given they're the coaches responsible for those areas.

    Wild concept, I know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Set piece was close to perfect last week and as we heard from Fogarty the attack was kick long. I'm of the opinion that Andy was aware of that and agreed with it so changing Goodman might not change how Farrell wants to play



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,873 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    This is an on-going problem, not specific to one game - one game doesn't prove anything either direction. I don't think anyone can claim (with a genuine or straight face) that our set piece or attack is going well in general.

    This isn't a knee-jerk reaction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,539 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'm not claiming anything, also, I've never looked for a coach to be sacked but I honestly think changing Goodman for someone different will only change our attack if Andy wants it to change



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41


    I think there is a strong possibility Italy win, but i think home advantage will get us over the line, but not confident saying that. If the game was in Rome I would be very very sure we loose it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭DBK1


    I agree. I’d get it very hard to believe that Farrell has no input or say over the coaching being undertaken by all his coaches. Surely he’s the one dictating to them what game plan he wants them to follow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭50HX


    I thought Farrell was the attach coach off of phase play & Goodman was brought in to coach the attack of set piece play.

    A bit like Nienaber at Leinster getting the blame for a multitude of things, it gives the other coaches a free pass.

    Any downturn in our attack play isn't solely down to Goodman, Farrell has always been an integral part of the attack coaching duties since becoming head coach



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,873 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    There's a degree to which that is true. Farrell takes the overall responsibility for everything, he's the main man. That's fine.

    We've had other coaches on those positions and have done very well. The change isn't Farrell, it's Goodman and O'Connell.

    Not that there aren't other factors at play, but at the moment their particular remits are lacking, and I trust Farrell to fix it, but I don't trust either of them in the same sense, because I don't think they were up to it in the first place. Farrell, however, is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 593 ✭✭✭sliabh 1956


    If Farrell's selection policy is to be consistent suirely Crowley has to start against Italy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    It is not going to happen. Sam is the man and will be for some time.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,966 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,966 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    He won't be there that long. I don't think he'll be Leinster starter for that long. There has to be someone better coming through and the most likely place for that to happen is Leinster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I agree with all this.


    I remember saying this before the summer of 2021 that I have a lot of fate in Andy Farrell but what he needs to do is decide weather Mike Catt, who had doubts about him at the time, is up to it or weather we need additional coaches or weather Catt needed replacing.


    If he doesn’t act then Farrell will start becoming a problem.

    To give him his dues POC seems to have steadied the lineout so I am less keen on moving him on then I was before…Goodman on the other hand needs to seriously start earning his corn soon otherwise he can take a hike.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Hard to tell with the lineout because a lot of our ball seema to come at 2? Could be wrong, just feels like we are playing it safe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 593 ✭✭✭sliabh 1956


    I would qualify that statement by reminding people that for most of the game France rarely contested the lineout when the did challenge near the end we didn't look too comfortable at that stage Kelleher was on. The Italians looked to have a pretty effective lineout on Saturday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's hard to know what the right thing to do is for Saturday. Realistically, sweeping changes to personnel aren't possible. We could bring guys like Lowe, Ryan, Conan back into the XV but that might be the extent of it. I personally would let Timoney and Casey and maybe stick Edogbo on the bench. If we have a new tactical approach (and I really hope this relentless kicking isn't it), then we need to give the players time to adapt to it, chopping and changing too much will ultimately be self-defeating.

    If we're on a downward curve talent-wise, which was always likely to happen, then we need to figure out how best to use the players we do have, and what we saw on Thursday was not it.

    And the utter lack of intensity needs to be fixed. Timoney and Ryan stood out on Thursday because they crashed into French lads, which should be a basic requirement for taking the field. My concern is that the players need a fresh voice in the changing room. At some point, players stop responding to the same shtick. We hit that point with Joe in 2019, if we've hit it with Farrell we're in trouble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    You don’t just lose talent. The issue with this team (and has been crippling this side for 12 months now) has been the lack of intensity and lack of workrate, that’s what needs to be focused on as opposed to making excuses for these players to just not show up every game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 496 ✭✭zetor 4911


    Yes they had and they also contested on the opposition throw something we didn't do against France



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    You don’t just lose talent

    ?

    Yes, you do. Players get old, players get injured, players retire, players lose form.

    If the next man in line isn't as good, then the team has lost talent.

    Neither of our out-halves are remotely as good as Sexton was, even at the end. JGP is not the player he was and Casey is a step-down. Furlong cannot be relied upon to stay fit, Lowe, Beirne and VDF are starting to show their age with no real replacements of similar quality available, Hansen and Keenan are significantly better than anyone we can replace them with, on and on and on. Our best XV in 2026 is not nearly as good as our best XV in 2023 or 2024, even if a lot of the names are the same.

    The challenge now is to get the best out of them.

    the lack of intensity and lack of workrate, that’s what needs to be focused on as opposed to making excuses for these players to just not show up every game.

    That's literally what Farrell did in his post-match interview on Thursday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    Goodman is not our attack coach. Andy is. Goodman is a set piece coach. So as much as majority of people think Goodman is stealing a living then overall attack strategy is on Andy.

    I'm not against replacing Goodman, but it would only have a significant impact if Andy promoted the replacement to full attack coach.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Fly half is true. JGP has been playing well this season, Thursday night was a bad night for him. Lowe fair enough but definetly not VDF Beirne, I feel with some players as soon as they turn 34-35 we just act like any poor game they have is their normal performance and that they are declining. VDF had a poor night also but he’s been playing very well for Leinster this season, Beirne has had issues with his lineout but other that has been good for Munster this season and was easily Ireland’s best player on Thursday.


    The problem is our team in 2023 and 2024 didn’t have 10-11 players playing at a 6/10 or worse every big game, with that being the case we are going to struggle regardless.


    Whats worrying for me is we seem to be doing what we did in 2019 where we are creating excuses for the players to accept mediocrity that allows them to play badly every game and think that it’s acceptable…once we go down that route it’s a long and painful slippery slope that will end badly in 18 months time…


    And it goes without saying we are NOT getting the best out of these players, the majority of the team are playing well below par, the question is are we going to drop our standards and accept this? If so then we are in a worse place than we realise.


    Well then, less talking more doing, if we see another sterile and static performance on Saturday then that will tell us all we need to know about the strength of character in this side and that things are far worse than we initially thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,939 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Completely agree. It's like watching games from 2016, except even moreso… kicking and winning contestables now seems to be hugely over-rewarded since the change to the escort laws, and it's clearly at the expense of fluid attacking phase-play, which is what Ireland built their success on.

    When one of our best attacks on Thursday is a bomb into the 22 that Garry Ringrose is a hand away from recovering, you know something is off.

    That said, we haven't adapted to it as well as other teams have.

    If we're going to persist with this, we need to be selecting our best back 3 players under the high ball. Keenan would make a huge difference here. Mack Hansen would help too (and at stepping in as first receiver). That leaves one wing option.

    For me, Osborne is good, but I hate him as a wing option. Imo, Calvin Nash is amongst those next up as being a quality option for contestables.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 426 ✭✭Tommysocks11


    Excuse my ignorance but is it a change to escort laws that means we cant play lovely free flowing attacking rugby like we played on new Zealand tour a few years ago? Why did they change the rules as now we have a hybrid game of catch and kick which is honestly puke to watch



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I think it's more to do with how the breakdown is refereed now.

    There seems a very clear trend in refereeing over the past 18 months or so where jackaling players are unduly rewarded, and teams run a high risk of conceding penalties when attempting to play phase-play attack.

    This leads to a scenario where teams seem very reluctant to attack from deep, because the risk of conceding penalties is so high.

    The real solution to this is the way the French play at their best - a high offloading game which avoids the need to commit high numbers to the breakdown, but's it's obviously not without risk in and of itself. You need to largely be winning collisions to play this type of game.

    I struggle to think of any Irish sides who've ever had an awful lot of success with a heavy offloading gameplan.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I struggle to think of many Irish sides who have ever tried a heavy offloading gameplan mind you.

    Unless we count Snyman's efforts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 502 ✭✭✭The Macho Man


    The Italian defensive lineout got away with murder on Sat. Zambonin guilty of jumping across the line to steal ball, never got pinged. Their scrum was very good. Schoeman got butchered by Ferrari.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,470 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Any squad updates? I don't remember any injuries from Thursday night. Although I did wonder if McCloskey was carrying a knick towards the end, simply because I can't think of any other explanation as to why we went down the aerial route from those two off the top line outs in the last 10 minutes rather than give the ball to McCloskey and let him run into 10 metres of space!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,281 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, agreed.

    There aren't many teams anywhere who've been hugely successful with it as a strategy tbh. Toulouse are so so good at it, but with their quality of players, they'd be successful playing almost any strategy in all likelihood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭letsbefair


    We need to keep in mind, France in Paris is one of the toughest games in rugby. Not sure many teams could have looked good against them. Very hard for both forwards and backs to shine going backwards. The ref was no help and they got every bounce of the ball. We need perspective, even the greats have bad days.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    It is not just the escort laws. It is also to do with the breakdown. The new laws with regards head contact/croc rolls etc make it harder to remove the jackaller. So the more rucks there are the more likely a turnover is. Even just slowing the ball down. It is much harder to play a high phase count game.

    What France also did is a lot of offloading in the tackle to remove the ruck. If we want free flowing running rugby we need to get better at offloading and running support lines.

    We also need to have better support lines in the chasing of the contestable. Not just the catcher but others to pick up on the scraps.



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