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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,462 ✭✭✭fitz


    This, for me, just validates my dislike of what the new escort laws have done to the game. Winning contestables now wins you games. All of those others stats are things that become positively impacted for the team winning the contestables, which are now creating way more unstructured play from these stupid bloody slapbacks. It's turning into basketball throw ins. I hate it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    We were physically bullied up front for the entire game. Ryan and Conan shored it up to a degree. It will always be next to impossible to win a game when you are 2nd best in the collisions by any significant majority. Scotland lost yesterday because Italy got over the gainline with their carries more than the Scots did and did this from kickoff. Often it is easy to focus on tactics, scrums, lineouts etc but honestly the only thing I do when watching a game to get a feeling for it is look at the collisions, it always tells you who is on top. Rugby fundamentally such a simple game. Can you win a game when you are losing collisions, yes but only if the gap is small and you have lots of luck and total dominance in other areas. Generally a loss is coming if you are conceeding yards up front.

    The pack Ireland started with was light in some key areas, Loughman, Clarkson, VDF, Cian Prendergast, Sheehan and Beirne are not big ballast ball carriers. Sheehan and VDF for example great wide and in space but not grunty ball carriers. McCarthy had a poor game and Doris did what he could. Not starting Conan and Ryan was a total mistake by Farrell and they both shored things up. I would have also started Milne and gambled as he is much better carrier than Loughman. Step one is always to lay down a marker up front in a game and Farrell handicapped us from kickoff even allowing for our current injury profile.

    Everything else is just noise, this is root cause.

    Would France have still won, yes I think so but doubt we would have been 29-0 down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    As has been said numerous times, the Irish pack was bigger than the French pack. There is absolutely no excuse for this side to be losing so many collisions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭big-al


    there is no doubt in my mind that players learn far more playing week in, week out than they do playing one week and spending the next couple of weeks re-watching performances and tactics on a laptop and going to the gym.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Size and weight is irrelevant though. It's what you actually do with that counts. Loughman and Clarkson tried hard, but neither holds a candle to what Porter, McCarthy or Furlong can bring physically.

    Doris, VDF, Joe McCarthy can and should be doing much better however. We've seen them look so much more physically dominant before.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    So we are just going to back to 2019 where we will blame physicality as the reason why Irish players who walk into contact/take the ball from a standing start get absolutely smashed I see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    We lost collisions because France were running onto the ball at pace. Ireland weren't. Its that simple.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah. I'm sure it's not actually that simple to fix but we had so many static one out runners when we were trying to maintain possession. It was painful to watch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Exactly, and that is what needs to be focused on…not “power” and nonsense like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    100 per cent and size is not the thing that determines whether you are a good ball carrier. It is a contributing factor but many other factors contribute. These include not in any particular order of importance include mindset, body position, speed at time of ball receipt, position of pass, conditioning, spatial awareness, step and latching technique with team mates.

    But Conan and Ryan are better ball carriers, so is Milne and Farrell made a mistake not starting these three especially considering our injury profile and missing big ball carriers. When I say big ball carrier I mean an effective ball carrier in contact not necessarily physically bigger.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    No, I didn't say that. Stop inventing something to argue against. There's lots of things wrong at the minute. But there's no doubt that Ireland have lost a physical edge.

    Some players are simply better in contact and more physical than others. It's not just offensively where we lost out, but also defensively. France had far more dominant tackles than us for instance. That's partly because we weren't taking the ball at speed sure. But also we didn't have the top quality athletes in the pack to dominate the collisions in years past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    They lost a physical edge because they are just waking into contact…what did they honestly think was going to happen, that the French player wouldn’t smashed them into next week? It was almost an identical pack to last year that was winning collisions, it’s not a valid excuse at all. Last year, and previous years in fact, our players were running onto the ball at pace, on Thursday it couldn’t have been more slow if they tried.

    On top of that we were dreadfully passive in defence, which combined with France actually running onto the ball at pace meant they pretty much always got over the gain line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    The Jalibert try was the game in microcosm. The Irish defence was on the back foot on their own line, Jalibert was running onto the ball at pace and he has a great step in him. Sam P has zero chance there.

    Its hard to defend in that scenario and in other parts of the game, France went through 5 or 6 phases in quick succession so the Ireland defence is always on its heels, retreating. Line speed is impossible.

    We will beat Italy and Wales. We will lose to England and reckon we will beat Scotland but the wins wont be convincing. Its largely not a personel issue. The one part where it is, its the lack of a 2nd or 3rd playmaker option. A Hansen/Lowe off their wing kept defences in check and asked questions, so 10. SAM and 15. Crowley would not be the worst idea.

    The rest of it is a combination of poor discipline and a stale environment. It reeks of the end days of the EOS, Kidney, Schmidt era's. I also think Goodman offers very little.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    The single most important thing any coach can change is pace of ball carrier as they move into contact. Ireland have become very static with their ball carriers. France ran onto the ball far more effectively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Which again coincides with the end of the Schmidt era.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 197 ✭✭longjohn200


    Not to completely disagree with the above but if ireland game plan was not play ball in hand, it's very hard to point he finger at the ball carrier



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭almostover


    Your final remark is telling. Each of the previous regimes faded out in a very similar fashion to what we're seeing over the last 12 months with this team. Every coaching ticket has a lifespan. This may be the beginning of the end for this one.

    The game on Thursday reminded me so much of the 1st 6N game in 2019 which began the demise of the Schmidt era. A centre playing fullback, the opposition far more up for the game that we were, passive defence and zero threat in attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭Jelly Welly


    Farrell needs to be jettisoned asap. Still time

    To rebuild for WC



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Schmidt era team also went through 2016-17 when they were looking very poor and then recovered to win the GS in 2018.

    Farrell himself looked poor as a head coach post 2019 until things took a turn in 2022.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭almostover


    Very true, we're hoping for that turnaround to happen. In some ways this sequence of events may work out for the RWC next year. This might be a tough 6N for us but if it leads to an upward curve from there on then it will be a blessing in disguise.

    It could also be a slow decline all the way up and including the RWC. I can't see Farrell leaving before then so we live in hope of the 1st scenario.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    A lot depends on the next 3 home games. A few defeats there and IRFU may have to act



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Tbh I also think it comes down to how we get on versus England. It’s a tough away game but one Ireland are capable of winning if they put together a competent performance for a change.


    If we win then a lot of the fears will be lifted if we build on the performance. If we lose but show some progress then things will be okay so long as we win the home games and if we have another gutless display like we had versus France then I think the IRFU need to act as it’ll be clear to anyone that the players are not playing for the coach and when that’s the case the gig is up.


    Realistically the home games are a no win situation, we should be expecting to win them and win well. If we want to be a serious rugby nation and have aspirations in 2027 then the games we need to pride ourselves on are the games versus England & France.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Losing away to England is not really significant. The performance would be more significant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Luckily for us both Scotland and Wales look weak this year. But Italy next week is a serious banana skin. I expect us to edge it but make no mistake this will be a tough game for us and could go either way. I don’t expect us to get anything from the England game. We’ll lose by 20+.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    It isn’t no, like you said it’s more of the performance.


    The issue is unless we win in Twickenham the 6N will automatically be looked upon negatively after that performance versus France.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    If we lose by +20 in Twickenham than the IRFU will need to move on some coaches by the end of the championship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I don't see us getting rid of Farrell before the RWC and as I've previously said, they have appointed from within the last few times. Who is the obvious head coach that they can jump to if they get rid of Farrell. I don't see a standout one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    They won’t move on Farrell but I could see the IRFU moving on some assistants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,758 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Keep Farrell. Ditch O'Connell and Goodman. Both are just not good enough.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,315 ✭✭✭✭phog




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