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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Oh like everything else Trump does, its a scam, no question. But he's been pissed at the UN and G7 for years now, so something like the global version he's touting where he runs it would certainly play to his ego, which is just as important as scamming money.

    But again, the DOD would like us all to remain calm and understand that there's no need for defence spending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    Regarding "Fighter jets for the Air Corps", I don't think a handful of fighter jets would survive the opening salvo of the world's only superpower if there were any sort of invasion.

    A Taliban style guerrilla war would be the only way to get rid of an occupier, even if it took 20 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Ah the good old fantasy "guerrilla war" option, jaysus you wonder why any nation bothers with investing in their militaries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    Its fantasy if you think an army with 3000 infantry soldiers with 1980s weaponry can take on the world's only superpower in conventional warfare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Where have I said that, in fact I've been very vocal on numerous threads about the failures to move beyond LoA3 at pace starting from 2022. But if you imagine your "guerrilla" option is the better option you are at best deluding yourself, both in terms of what that means it its attempted (see the nations that have fought that way), or that Ireland could actually mount such an attempt (spoiler, the population aren't all hidden well trained forces waiting to attack).

    The sane option would have been taking the 2014 invasion as a wake up call and getting serious about defence then, both at a national level and EU level.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 londonresident


    It is unlikely that the Air corps needs any serious fire power at this moment, but the government there can only do what they can do, with all the other budget commitments ongoing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,887 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    What does 'unlikely" mean?

    Do you understand anything about the actual issues at play, including the LoA2 implementation plan for the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, the pending capability development reports for the future Army, Navy and Air Force and the reorganisation of the command and control structures, or are you just making passing, ill-informed comments for the sake of it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    To be fair, "pending" is doing an awful lot of work there, are they already well late? I mean the Commission's LoA's and the Governments response were already outdated in 2022 given the renewed invasion by Russia, but now with the US under Trump? Feels more and more like the 00's when the WP was wheeled out to say everything was fine with no mention of 9/11 or the decades of chaos that unleashed.

    Also, anyone hear anything about those Americans that were meant to be advising on restructuring the AC?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭vswr


    Ambition is also an ambiguous term. I'm sure a load of us have the ambition to be millionaires…. doesn't mean we will be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Probably not but that doesn't mean they would be useless. Survival migh be better if they were not confined to just one airbase and able to take off from a straight bit of road STOL types maybe. Thye would serve as a tripwire and perhaps monitor incursions by lesser powers during peacetime their existance would show a willingness to defend our airspace too.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    Then, how would you suggest a nation as small as Ireland could survive and defeat the world's only superpower with the world's most modern and powerful military?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    There is no chance of survival, no matter what you do with them. Theyd be the first target.

    For peacetime airspace policing they have a role, but forget it if things go hot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    They would be the first target but wouldn't that be a tripwire. Depend on how they were distributed, hidden and decoys deployed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    How did Finland survive the Cold War? Why did neutral Sweden work on Nuclear Weapons?

    However, the reality is Ireland is alone because we have made our defencelessness a state religion, ignoring all other options. Like the fact that we happen to be in a multinational organisation with a defence clause, an organisation that is rapidly (for the EU anyway) changing position on defence, apart from us, who are just ignoring the issue as it offends our state religion.

    As for the US, the question of whether It's still the "only superpower" is rapidly coming under pressure from China and its own internal issues. But your views seems to be the same old same old, that has meant we've done nothing on defence since 1922, ignoring of course that even then the British could have overwhelmed us if they were willing (see the recent RTE article on the plans drawn up for the failure of the Treaty Talks).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    At least under De Valera we had over 40,000 regular troops plus over 100,000 territorials. Plus a few squadrons of modern aircraft and a few small warships. These backed by a capable intellegence service were backing our neutrality in the 40's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The troops had little weapons above surplus rifles, the AC never got to squadron strength with ANY modern Aircraft of any period and lacked any integrated ground control and radar systems, and the MTB's were first generation, underarmed, too few and unfit for Irish sea states.

    But sure, other than that, we were fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 londonresident


    It is unlikely. There is no immediate direct threat from any country. Yes Russia is observing.

    The major change to the Air capability is going to cost quite something. Nato was the better option for that. If the security problem is several years away, a few fighter jets will make some small difference, but not enough to have something similar to the British setup.

    That is what Ireland should have, and I mean the Irish nation, not Ireland as in the island. That isn't going to happen.

    The government's committment to change is in the correct direction.

    I'm not an expert on military hardware.

    Clearly many countries could pull off a Maduro stunt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Mentioning lack of Radar is not reasonable as it was a new invention at the time, only major powers had developed it ilke GB and Germany. A squadron can be as few as 10 aircraft the AC had about 14 fighters (Hurricanes) mid war more later. An army of 140 to 150 thousand men was not to be dismissed especially when they knew and would defend their own land and would give have given a headache to either Hitler or GB at the time. They would need at least twice that number to completely subdue ireland at the time even with their airforces and/or naval strength. That's before the policy of joining forces with the non attacking force!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not at all unreasonable, by the time of the Hurricanes it was a well understood tech and one that the UK had been trying to get us to agree to install for years at that point, but that doesn't change the issue of no C&C, and I'll add in no ability to support anything outside of Dublin.

    And I chose my words carefully when I said "Modern", the Hurricanes weren't modern by 1943, they were in fact considered no longer capable of Air to Air Combat, particularly as we bought the Mark 1's so the least capable and oldest capable variant of a pre WW2 design. The procurement of later Mark's and the Seafires post war making even less sense.

    Now if a hostile force had been nice enough to phone ahead to warn us, and then fly unescorted (and perhaps unarmed) bombers over Dublin, the AC might have been able to do "something" for a bit (until they ran out of spares/fuel/airframes), but calling that an effective air interception capability seems a "bit" of a stretch, less said about before 1943 the better.

    As to the Army yes I can dismiss it, as a) it took most of the war to get to that point (I seem to recall we actually dropped numbers in 1940 for harvesting for example), and was far less than that at any of the high tension points (1939-1942), b)I'm not willing to assume everyone on the list of the LDF were actually active trained up personnel (we all know stories of FCA shenanigans), so what we notationally had on the books may not actually have been reality if bullets started flying, for example we lied repeatedly to the British about numbers when we started talking to them about joint defence post Fall of France.

    Throughout the War, the Army lacked sufficient numbers of all enablers for WW2 warfare, from comms, transport, artillery, anti tank capabilities, armour, air defence, spares etc. So the idea that if the Allies (which were the only ones that could actually get to us) had for whatever reason decided that they were going to invade even before the US got involved, then no, the Army wouldn't have had the ability to stop them. It's basically the same trope as "sure we'll all become Guerilla fighters and that will stop the invaders", ignoring the reality that it's a really bad plan and outcome even if it works. The Allies for example could have taken the Treaty Ports and surrounding areas and held them without giving a feck about what the Army might do, and the Axis couldn't have done anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    I don't know what you mean by "tripwire".

    Hiding them would be difficult, as there is only a handful of airstrips in Ireland capable of handling fighter aircraft, and you'd be guaranteed they'd be destroyed on day one.

    An AWACS flying 400-600km away, out over the Atlantic, out of reach of any air defence, would detect any aircraft that got airborne.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    That doesn't answer my question. It's just rambling.

    Finland wasn't invaded by a superpower during the Cold War.

    However, if Finland had been invaded and occupied by a superpower during the Cold War, they planned to use 'Sissi' guerrilla warfare units. Their aim was not to defeat the enemy in open battle, but to make the cost of occupying the country higher than any potential gain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Tripwire as in the first line of defence or to be attacked. If we had STOL we could multiply where we could use the aircraft like the Swedish do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The Irish army figures in 1942 - mid war- were said to be 40,000 regular army and 100,000 territorials. look what the IRA did with only a few thousand badly armed men - holding down around 60,000 regular troops.

    A guerilla army would probably have existed too even when/if a regular army was beaten and would have received support from the Axis at that point in the war.

    Radar was only available to the major powers mid war and as it turns out Radar stations were set up under british control in Donegal and Cork we also had numerous costal watch station around the Island.

    The Hurricane was still a modern aircraft if not a frontline fighter/interceptor in 1942. There were Mk1 and Mk2 some captured after forced landiings here. It was used until the end of the war as a ground attack aircraft only taken out of front line service by the british in 1944 and still used until 1947 in other roles.

    If either Churchill or Hitler wanted to take the country or even the ports it would have been a nightmare for us but also for them especially when they needed the 200,000 or so troops elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,213 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    All of it or do you want to be specific?

    From the fantasy publication "History Ireland"

    "The British were secretly allowed to set up radar stations near Schull, Co. Cork, and near Malin Head, Co. Donegal. In addition, they were allowed to station a spotter aircraft at Foynes to look for German U-boats. Those were only some of the ways in which the Irish quietly helped."

    Post edited by saabsaab on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Bullpup


    Guerrilla warfare was indeed an official policy of the Irish Army during The Emergency, and they trained for it.

    After a delaying action, then a conventional static defence, the army was to split up, regroup and fight a guerrilla war.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    "...26 May 1944, Royal Navy Sea Hurricanes operating from the escort carrier HMS Nairana claimed the destruction of three Ju 290 reconnaissance aircraft during the defence of a convoy..."

    Depends what Ireland used the Hurricane for. It's was hardly doing to fight a war with a handful of planes. Patrol, ground attack, still useful for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,874 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    The Eurofighter is hard to beat for QRA intercepts. They heard the sonic booms in Gdansk. It's going to be even more capable when it gets the new ECRS Mk2 AESA radar



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,874 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    If Ireland does eventually get fighter jets, say 40 years from now, It might be wise to invest in better quality hangers than Portugal.

    Portugal F-16 hangar 2.jpeg Portugal F-16 hangar.jpeg

    I believe 14% of their F-16s were damaged.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭thomil


    To be fair, Monte Real airbase, which is where that incident happened, has extensive dispersal and hardened aircraft shelter complexes. The damage in those photos occurred in one of the base’s heavy maintenance hangars, and those aircraft were out of action anyway.

    The last image you posted shows one F-16 with its engine removed and several ventral and tail fin panels removed. That’s not storm damage, that’s scheduled heavy maintenance. similarly, an aircraft on the far end of the hangar is lacking its tail fin, cockpit canopy, radar and radome. Now, that does not mean that these aircraft are undamaged, the hangar doors were clearly blown in and onto some of the F-16s in the hangar, which means that every single aircraft in the hangar will need to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if all of them can be made operational again.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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