DART+ (DART Expansion)

And the depot will be entirely pointless if you don't have the track upgrades with which to run it on, ETCS, quad tracking, bigger stations etc.

Like what you are asking is every single bit of the project has to be through the planning boards, ready to go to PQQ and tender before proceeding with any part of the project. What on earth is the point of compartmentalising them all into separate projects, a benefit that you have noted in several threads so that one component doesn't sink the entire program.

The improvements that D+ SW won't lie unused, they will be underutilised for sure, but you are asking for us to not proceed with the extremely long process of upgrading signalling over >30km of track, until we have planning permission for what amounts to a rather large shed.

You are not going to get perfect sequencing in projects unless your planning system runs perfectly smoothly, which ours does not.

The reason why Dart+ got broken up into 4 seperate projects was to prevent stuff like features of one aspect of the scheme, placing the entire scheme in jeopardy. Things like, level crossings in south Dublin, the depot, Level crossings in West, Glasnevin, Spencer Dock etc.

IÉ said that they were indeed able to continue to proceed with the rest of the projects whilst the depot is being redesigned and a new location is finalised. It now seems likely it will go to the planning board having been located in Kilcock with a short stub of upgraded track to Maynooth. This should not stop any of the other components of the scheme going ahead. Certainly not so that we can fund yet another study into WRC, into a 3rd ring road of Castlebar, or whatever other kite flying the regional independents want. It's not good policy, it's not good for our transport, and frankly isn't good for the country because this stop start nature makes our infrastructure development more unreliable, untrustworthy and driving up subsequent costs of future development.

We collectively all agree Dart+, the full package, needs to get built, and there are many many roads projects which were built in anticipation of future development, Luas Stubs which were built for similar reasons. For example, the Brides Glen branch of the Green Line was opened in 2010, over essentially green fields, in the middle of a recession with no development anywhere nearby. It is now in 2026 that it has begun to reap the fruit of its investment. What order of magnitude of cost do you think it would be, if the brides glen branch was to be built now, now that its capacity can be fully utilised? 2x? 4x?

There is zero reason to provide cover for the government over this. What they are doing does not make fiscal sense.

The issue isn't whether or not the government has delayed funding, they have, the issue is that the argument that the reason for doing so is because of the Depot doesn't hold any water.

The NDP that featured a giveaway to vanity projects in the west of Ireland while explicitly delaying this project seems a more likely culprit, why would the Government give IÉ cover for their Depot cock-up?

IÉ themselves haven't given any public cause to believe it is a blocker and the hard facts don't suggest we will suddenly see a drop in construction costs that would make it cheaper to delay construction.

As has been stated already this is multiple century infrastructure, whether it goes underutilised for a few months or even years (like the Kildare Route) is irrelevant.

If all the line improvements, power lines and supporting infrastructure were built in the near term (as planned), and the depot was delayed even beyond the end of the current DART contract, the infrastructure would all still be there for the next unit framework.

The infrastructures CBA (already long past approval) is its benefit for as long as it exists, not for its first few years of existence.

In case anyone thinks I don't believe the west deserves infra, the citizens of Westport, Castlebar, Ballina, Galway and Limerick would be far better served by considerably less sexy line improvements and doubling/passing loops on the Portlaoise to Dublin Line and the already existing parts of the WRC than opening the line to Claremorris.

National grid power supply issues will likely also be a factor in commissioning (similar to the bus depots), but like the other factors mentioned are not necessarily a reason to delay the civil works.

.. also it is highly unlikely that the new DART+ stock would be suitable for use in Cork or Limerick. All indications so far are that the Cork Commuter lines and Limerick-Limerick Junction will be electrified at 25 kV AC, while DART is a 1500 V DC network.

Is it not true that the BEMUs from Order #1 will run instead of the DMU trains currently used on Drogheda-Dublin commuter services?

Unless you’re planning for the highly unlikely situation where none of DART+W is done, signalling and electrification are not problems: these have a railway order, and so they will be done. The only part of the project with a risk of non-delivery before the scheduled commissioning date is the depot.

The discussion, as I see it, was what kind of a service could be provided without that Maynooth depot. I think Irish Rail could make it work if they had to, but it would be messy. Most likely outcome I see is if the depot is not yet finished at end of the DART+W works, the current DMU service will run, supplemented by whatever small number of EMUs can be stabled in Inchicore. In this situation, new trains will still be ordered, but on delivery they will be be towed to a yard somewhere and will not enter service until the depot is ready. That delay would be less than 6-12 months, though: there is no realistic situation where the rest of DART+W gets build but a depot is never built.

Yes. The question I was addressing was “Could the new trains be used outside of Dublin if the Maynooth depot is late?” But, as you say, the Cork and Limerick lines will most likely need 25 kV AC trains, not 1500 V DC ones.

I do suspect there will be a small number of dual-voltage EMUs bought as part of a later order. These could be used on either the Dublin or regional commuter networks, but would be available provide cover in the event of shortages or trains being taken out of service.

If Inchicore was to be used at all for stabling EMUs before the Depot was ready, surely that increases the benefits of doing D+SW infrastructure works as originally planned? Especially and in particular the quad tracking at the gullet and electrification at least from Glasnevin to Inchicore?

I feel like there's a lot of potential space at Inchicore, there's an absolute ton of rusting old stuff in the yard there that could/should be dismantled/preserved as appropriate, surely it can't all be needed?

DART is 1500V DC only.

I’d imagine that most of the withdrawn 201s will be scrapped soon enough, they’re not in any sort of usable condition now.