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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I for one am intrigued to see if you are wrong and if there is a point in time, past which, everyone is dead from RTAs, presuming an exponent greater than 1 as she said increasing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Its a peer reviewed paper, admittedly not in my area so unsure if it is well respected but presuming it is, whether it is an engineer, a PhD student, a post doc, doesn't really matter. It is not his thesis, albeit it might have been work done during his thesis.

    I requested the paper to check the power of the stats, something that some groups often fall down on but often other scientists and lay people over estimate in regards the actual number of data points to make an inference. It is often far lower than people think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,544 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Drogheda mayor calls for active travel funding to cover entire joined up projects rather than a phased approach which leads to disjointed infrastructure...

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,666 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Doesn't Vingegaard regularly have to descend at high speed with other racers chasing him?

    Sounds like he overcooked a corner himself and is using this to deflect blame from his own cycling



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    That's kind of besides the point. He wasn't racing on closed roads he was trying to train. Having some amateur whose descending and bike handling skills could be appalling for all you know trying to take the opportunity to jump on your wheel is probably the last thing any pro needs. Just a bit of respect really. Would any of us do it if we came across any of our pros training?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,354 ✭✭✭✭Stark


     Would any of us do it if we came across any of our pros training?

    No, but only because I wouldn't have a hope of keeping up 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,389 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    There was another incident only a week or so ago when another halfwit rode up alongside the VLAB squad, filming on his phone and seemingly completely oblivious to the fact that he was on the wrong side of an open road heading into a blind bend until Vingo called him out on it.

    Crashing because some moron is playing out some weird fantasy in his head where VLAB go "Hey - this guy is really good. Quick - give him a contract" shouldn't really be an occupational hazard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Pros or not, they don't get to dictate where other cyclists (or anyone else) can and can't ride on an open public road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    No, agreed, but I don't think that's what was suggested. Its a bit like tailgating in a car.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    That's a good analogy, alright. And I don't disagree that it is disrespectful, and adds an element of risk. But there is still nothing that entitles a pro cyclist (or anyone else without policing authority) to demand a change in others' behaviours. Like the rest of us, who occasionally have similar on our own spins/commutes, they just have to deal with it (and I have!).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Wow. Listening to The Late Debate on RTE1 right now, discussing yesterday’s flooding. Read out a text from a listener suggesting that it’s partly due to local authorities spending their funding on “cycle lanes and anti-car measures instead of flood defences”.

    Unbelievable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Now talking about the scrambler issue… seamlessly allowed to segway into conflating high powered motor vehicles (scramblers) with e-scooters.

    I give up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,440 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    2 pedestrians killed on the roads by drivers since the scrambler incident - no uproar unsurprisingly.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The drivers of those cars are more than likely licenced, insured and their vehicles are taxed and have a certificate of roadworthiness. They also run a much higher risk than a scrambler bike of being caught if driving dangerously. It's also much more likely that an accident caused by a car driver will have been caused by a momentary relapse while scramblers tend to drive on footpaths on one wheel

    Basically our govt and gardaí actively try to make driving cars as safe as possible while they largely turn a blind eye to scrambler bikes. That's why there is far less outcry when a pedestrian is killed by being hit by a car



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    I'd say the fact the car drivers were licensed, insured and taxed makes the dead pedestrians feel better about the whole thing. Obviously no need to go any further in preventing things like this happening again.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,579 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a van driver who killed a woman at a pedestrian crossing - he was looking the wrong way as he drove across the crossing - got a suspended sentence this week. contrast that with the calls to have teenagers on scramblers firebombed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,153 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I don't think it is, to be honest. And I'm not trying to be smart. I just don't think that's why there's less of an outcry, and I'd be confident that an academic psychologist could delve into the cognitive dissonance in detail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I'm specifically explaining the lack of outrage rather than the feelings of the dead and their families.

    The distance our legislation has come in attempting to prevent road deaths due to legally driven vehicles is much greater than the near silence we get when we call for better enforcement for scramblers.

    The teenager who was driving his scrambler will likely get a suspended sentence as well. He hasn't even been named yet to my knowledge



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Why then, in your opinion, WHYis there less of an outcry?

    Personally I'm fairly pissed that I have to obey the rules of the road and scramblers don't



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,312 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    scramblers do have to obey the rules of the road, but some who use them don't. same with every other vehicle. there are over 100,000 uninsured drivers on our roads, drunk drivers kill people all the time, everyone breaks the speed limit etc. etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    Unfortunately "to the best of (your) knowledge" betrays significant gaps. Both about the identity of scrambler rider responsible for the young girl's death and about the law around scramblers.

    The scrambler rider's name and photograph have been widely publicised over the last three days.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2026/0127/1555269-dublin-scrambler-crash/

    There is functionally zero difference in the legislation applicable to scramblers and to other motor vehicles. They need to be taxed and insured and the drivers need to be licensed and follow the rules of the road. Levels of enforcement against drivers of all vehicles are so low as to be of very little value as a deterrent. But, in the unlikely event a driver is the subject of enforcement they find it more difficult to escape while scrambler riders have a greater chance of evading capture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    So you're one of the less than 1% who never breaks the speed limit? You always stop at an amber light unless it's unsafe to do so, never mind breaking a red light just after it's changed? You never park on double yellows or a bike lane with your hazards on for 'just a minute'? Never touch a phone while sitting in a car, even if it's stationary?

    Good to know, I guess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Not sure how I missed that, genuinely thanks!

    Enforcement is poor in this country that is true but it is a million miles stronger against car drivers. I pass a speed van at least twice a week on my way to/from work and get breathalysed once per year. I don't have an issue with being watched in this way but these scramblers are doing 90 through our parks and cycle lanes.

    Call the cops on them and you get nothing

    As somebody else correctly mentioned, there is functionally zero difference in the legislation, but there is an absolutely massive difference in the enforcement of said legislation.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,779 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Not to be flippant, but less likely a momentary lapse and more likely a recurrent lapse that finally caught them out. If everytime a momentary lapse occurred an accident ensued, the injury and fatality rate would be astronomical. Everytime I drive the M50, only for others and I are awake, the amount of times i have to dodge a lane changer on the phone, drifter who over corrects when they cross lanes, or on the N11, not accelerate on green or have to stop despite right of way because another motorist runs a red, doesn't indicate forgets that an indicator isn't a right of way, proceeds even though they can't see the way to be clear

    Even as a pedestrian, the number of times i have had to quite literally either jump or pull someone back as a car ran through a junction they had no priority on, all of these things are the near daily experience of just one person in a city of over 1 million people.

    Being licensed, insured or taxed has not alleviated any of these things. Scramblers exist, they are awful, the behaviour of those on them is awful but the risk of being caught doesn't deter a subset of drivers, that out number scrambler drivers quite substantially.

    As for turning a blind eye, I imagine loads of us have seen law breaking right in front of our eyes, with a Garda sitting in a vehicle watching it and no reaction whatsoever.

    There is far less outcry because most people cannot relate to being a typical scrambler in the city user, but they can relate to being a driver who has done something wrong and wouldn't like to have gotten in trouble for it or simply cannot see what is wrong with their behaviour.

    Yes, there needs to be action on this group of users but as a priority, there needs to be much more action and less tolerance on the subset of motorists.

    Only today I came round a corner in my car to an Enterprise van on the wrong side of the road, I stepped on the brakes and he missed me by inches. If I report this, do you think he will lose his license, get taken off the roads, not a hope, having a license, number plate, NCT has not stopped the near miss, that in a small number of cases, the person in my position was also not paying attention or going to fast and an avoidable incident occurs.

    My mother was hit buy a drugged driver years ago, out of his mind, so much so he tried to drive off before crashing again. Consequences, nothing. That was it, a few character witnesses and a day in court, no other punishment. Only thing that has my mother here today in a non critically injured fashion was when it was obvious what was happening, she put the foot down and he hit just behind her. It would possibly have left her dead or permanently injured if she hadn't. He didn't go to jail, just a suspended sentence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,312 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Just saw a farmer texting on his phone while driving a massive tractor on Lincoln place lol, that's a new one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    "it is a million miles stronger against car drivers" - ah I don't think that's an accurate framing of it really. I think what you might be saying here is "nobody does anything about scramblers but there's a lot of roads policing of cars", but from both my behind-the-wheel and cycling perspectives, I see negligible amounts of road policing enforcement at all really. So it might be more focused on cars than scramblers, but it's still barely noticeable.

    Someone I know visited from Chicago and couldn't believe the stuff that was just not just "not enforced" but actively ignored by the gardai. People parking on roundabouts and footpaths directly in front of uniformed gardai, confident that nothing would be done or said etc.

    Driving safety is just not taken seriously in Ireland whatsoever right now. It's not a "garda" or "enforcement" issue, rather we have a much wider culture problem. I would go so far as to say that MOST of the same people who are rightly appalled at that poor girl's death also themselves do dangerous illegal things while driving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,990 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    The lack of enforcement is a result of the cultural issue we have around driving. Anything for efficient enforcement is framed as anti car driver. On another thread on here we have elected councillors voting to stop active enforcement of parking regulations as it would discommode people in cars. Can't have camera enforcement as it's "shooting fish in a barrel". Judiciary who actively minimise sentencing for road crimes and deaths, and go out of their way to support motorists against enforcement measures. Basically, there's zero political will to actually take action, so ultimately can the gardai really be blamed for reflecting that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I've been scathing of the RSA plenty of times, but when it started and there was all that media hype with Gay Byrne etc I feel like there was a little bit of a general cultural push towards safety. That momentum is all gone now really. Even the RSA themselves are basically a driver licensing and car inspection company now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    As for turning a blind eye, I imagine loads of us have seen law breaking right in front of our eyes, with a Garda sitting in a vehicle watching it and no reaction whatsoever.

    I've never seen a copper dismiss a car running a red light or a car driving in a bus lane when they see it, although I admit they don't see it very often. Speeding motorists are now largely caught by speed vans. However if you see a scrambler in a public park and call the cops you might get a car out 2 hours later if you're lucky. I've witnessed scramblers in the cycle lanes on the childers road/roxboro and the cops drive on by as if they haven't seen them

    Yes, there needs to be action on this group of users but as a priority, there needs to be much more action and less tolerance on the subset of motorists.

    I don't disagree with this statement, and no reasonable person would. There are camera based solutions that have been used in other jurisdictions for the last 20 years that we don't want to use here. Not sure they will solve the scramblers though as most of them don't display a reg plate

    I think what you might be saying here is "nobody does anything about scramblers but there's a lot of roads policing of cars"

    That's not at all what I am trying to say. A million times more when starting from a low base is still not necessarily "a lot" and I do not disagree that enforcement is low for car users

    The original question phrased was why there is much more outrage at the scrambler driver flying through red lights at 85km/h killing a 16 year old than there are for other road deaths.

    Perhaps it would be more helpful if others on here can give a better reason rather than making various assumptions



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