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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    With Ireland likely to go with a 6/2 split, an unlikely but not impossible inclusion I could see is Osborne on the left wing.


    gives Ireland cover at 13 if Ringrose goes down, offers the same large boot that Lowe offers.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,546 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    For a guy that "offered very little" he's still ended up with a grand slam and a Heineken cup medal in the year before he retired.

    The tale is as old as time. Connor Murray even said it. If another player wants the jersey they have to reef if off the incumbent.

    No one could do that to Kearney from 2015-2019. No one could do that to sexton. No one could do that to cian healy. No one could do that to POM.

    Jgp came along and did it to Murray. Joe mc to iain Henderson. When the upstart is good enough farrell had never shyed away from dropping the incumbent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Bit of a tautology there. How do you know when a player has done enough to win the jersey from another player? When that second player wins the jersey.

    Some here have argued that any combination of Kenny, Stockdale or Ward has done enough to win the jersey, or reef it off Lowe or whatever way you want to put it, by being the best left wing on the island. Or at least consistently putting in the best performances at left wing on the island.

    I suppose we have to wait and see who starts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I agree with everything about “no one could reef the jersey off the incumbent” except the POM part. Baird, and particularly Beirne, had shown more in the 6 jersey in 2024-2025 and both clearly had a higher ceiling long term in nailing it down but with McCarthy’s injury & Baird underperformance versus England Esterby unfortunately chickened out and went back to the safety blanket of POM.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,546 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I suppose we do, no point in arguing over hypotheticals.

    If the choice for back three was 11 lowe 14 tob 15 Stockdale, would that be acceptable over 11 Stockdale 14 tob 15 crowley / frawley?

    As for the question "how do you know when a player has done enough" well the answer is, simply, for us fans the only time we will know is when the player gets the jersey. We are not privy to the standards of the training sessions, the markers which are set to be reached, etc

    The point I've already made is when the player is good enough, they start.

    There was horror here when Robbie henshaw was selected to start at 13 against Australia last November, yet he goes out and puts in a fantastic performance in a overwhelmingly positive team performance. There's a reason why "form is temporary, class of permanent" is a cliche. Because there is some truth to it.

    Look, I watched lowe versus Munster in thomond on the 27th and said after that game that he should be no where near the Ireland squad. However, if he's selected to play away on France in two weeks time that tells me a few things

    1. The coaches still have faith that he can perform in a big game

    2. He's still hitting his markers in training

    3. His alternatives have not been doing enough in camp to demand the jersey

    4. The injury list is such that we cannot afford too many "green" players on the field.

    If lowe doesn't start against France then most if not all of the above haven't happened.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I get that you're arguing in good faith, but -

    The point I've already made is when the player is good enough, they start.

    is just circular.

    Class isn't permanent because every player ages out of performing well. I know that sounds like I'm being snide or semantic, but I'm genuinely not, because many fans feel that there are a number of players that are at exactly that point. So let's just dispense with that truism.

    I take your points, but point 1 can actually be a criticism of the coaches. Let me offer a deliberately pejorative rephrasing of it that is regardless sometimes true. "Despite the way he was playing, the coaches were adamant that he would perform well in the first game of the Six Nations." Let me over-egg it completely - "Despite all the evidence of their own eyes, the coaches doubled down on selecting him."

    That's actually what some supporters are getting angry - or worried - about. That Farrell is misjudging how much faith he should put in some players. And needs to reassess how objective he is when assessing the players.

    Ultimately, like politicians, every coach's career ends in failure. I don't think we're there yet with Andy, but others do, and the simple statistics tell you that last year was not as successful as previous years. And there can obviously be multiple reasons for that but it comes down to - you're winning games or you're not. And we're winning less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,139 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    When the upstart is good enough farrell had never shyed away from dropping the incumbent.

    This, a million times over, and it is always ignored.

    Rob Kearney retired 7 years ago, and never played for Farrell as his head coach. The only real similarity between him and Lowe is that discontented people on the internet think he should be dropped while no one whose job it is to pick winning rugby teams agrees.

    At some point, someone will come along and displace Lowe, just like Lowe and Hansen displaced their predecessors. If that happens between now and the RWC, great, and if it doesn't, it doesn't.

    And we need to compare like with like here. The URC is a million miles away from test level, and winger in particular is a position where it's easy to catch the eye against lower level opposition and also very easy to be exposed at higher levels.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,137 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I get that you're arguing in good faith, but -The point I've already made is when the player is good enough, they start.is just circular.

    I think the point is more that we have examples of younger players usurping more experienced ones relatively quickly so it is not like it never happens. There is some logic behind why it happens some times and not others (even if we don't agree with that logic).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Doesn't that cut both ways? If a winger was doing poorly at URC level, where it's easy to shine, shouldn't that ring alarm bells?



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,546 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Can't really argue against much in that post. We're seeing the same thing but just looking at it from a "half full versus half empty" pov. I don't think we're going to have a good six nations. I think third will be a success (given the ridiculous injury list, the aging of players, the struggle for form of others etc)

    However, crisis and opportunity are two sides of the same coin. Will I be calling for the coaches head if we finish 3rd and have put in decent performances away from home? I certainly won't. There are posters on here who will be, rabidly.

    Success in this championship, for me, will be winning our home games, blooding 2 or 3 new players (edogbo, milne and doak being the obvious choices, and hopefully balou getting to see grass as well). I'm certain as well that's injuries are going to mean we're going further into our depth chart as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I find myself in agreement so I'm going to have a think and concoct something spurious we can have a bitter argument about.

    Be right back.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,546 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    🤣

    ill be ready, sharpening my indignation and umbrage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,139 ✭✭✭Former Former Former




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,139 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yeah, it should - but alarm bells with whom?

    Like, the one consistent theme throughout Farrell's tenure has been fans tearing their hair out asking "what more can Player X do??", based on what we've seen in matches, or conversely, "how is Player Y still getting picked?".

    It's been a recurring theme that Farrell doesn't pick his team based on what players do for other teams, he picks based on what he sees himself. As long as Lowe - or Henshaw, Ringrose, whoever - is doing the business for him, he won't panic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭50HX


    One would think so but it's not the only barometer a head coach will work off, credit & trust in the bank is hugely understated imo by supporters. We know about it but don't want to really acknowledge it.

    Autumn 24 Mack Hansen had 4 urc games ( not in great form iirc) played before the NZ game, I was at that game & thought he was v v poor. He played himself into form as the AI's went on.

    Lowe is in a similar position this year, 2 urc games b4 AI's & form hasn't been great.

    I suspect he will be afforded the same opportunity as Hansen 24 AI's was.

    The difference this time is us supporters can see wing options going v well at club level that wasn't there in November 24, hence the suggestion for a Stockdale/Ward to start.

    Plenty of posters here will show that Farrell will back the newbie for a position...see Paddy Mc & even looking at Bohan this week.

    If he goes with Lowe v France then the defense will be the " how they go in training week" re the other options, some will back Lowe others see viable alternatives....its a circular discussion in many ways.

    I would like to see an alt to Lowe in Paris but suspect he will start, other will be happy with him.

    The thing now is if he stinks it out in Paris its hard to defend not selecting one of the viable alternatives



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭blackcard


    How do the Irish hookers rate as scrummagers? Spotlight usually falls on props, even on locks but no one seems to mention a hookers impact.

    Has Sheahan put on a few kgs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Very hard for us to know, I think - props' deficiencies tend to result in one of their props suffering. The hooker is literally hidden away in the centre.

    All you can do is go on what those in and around the set-up have said or occasionally see the difference when, in a rare instance, a hooker is the sole change in a scrum.

    Unless I'm mistaken, Kelleher is the best scrummager of the live Ireland options, Herring is the best scrummaging hooker on the island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,598 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    James Tracy commented before in the context of the Leinster hookers (who he would have trained alongside), and said Ronan Kelleher was the strongest scrummager of that bunch; which stands to reason. He's a bit shorter and squatter than Sheehan, and seems very powerful. Believe Rob Herring is also a very powerful scrummaging hooker.

    Gus McCarthy doesn't strike me as an especially powerful scrummager, and would say the same for the likes of Tom Stewart, Lee Barron & Diarmuid Barron.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,613 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    As long as Lowe - or Henshaw, Ringrose, whoever - is doing the business for him, he won't panic.

    Ok, but if we focus on Lowe, it's fairly obvious he is not doing the business, so is Farrell going to panic and do something about it? He was crap in the AIs and his limitations were on full display.

    I don't think anyone is calling for Lowe to be dropped based purely on his Leinster performances in the URC this season, it's his Leinster performances and his Ireland performances that have led to questions about what he's really bringing to the table these days.

    Lowe is rapidly running out of credit in the bank. Or at least he really should be.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 377 ✭✭letsbefair


    With both Ulster and Munster not qualifying for the last 16 of the Heineken we need a dose of reality, our expectations should be realistic. Very few Irish players made teams of the week or created headlines. The URC performances are not close to test level. Andy Farrell will not pick players to go to Paris because they looked good in a few URC games. He will stick with guys who he trusts away to France especially given our front row issues. France will go after the scrum, they smell blood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭50HX


    Ulster weren't in the Champions Cup to start with.

    Paddy Mc played 140 mins of URC this season b4 going to make his test starts & its pretty much agreed across the board he is a great prospect...urc argument doesnt stack up.

    No league in the world is test level rugby....thats why its called test level



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,491 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Is the Champions Cup group stage a great barometer these days? In fairness the Leinster La Rochelle match was a proper game, so the Leinster players who played well there should be in credit. But a lot of the pool stage games are half baked now which saddens me greatly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 377 ✭✭letsbefair


    Paddy Mc is a unique player, very few like him with their hand up for selection. The point is we are not over flowing with top level players and our teams bar Leinster are not showing up as being in top form. We can't expect Andy Farrell and his coaches to perform miracles.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,613 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Just going to conveniently leave out Leinster?


    France’s starting TH, most likely, isn’t any more experienced than Milne…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,139 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Ok, but if we focus on Lowe, it's fairly obvious he is not doing the business

    Again, 'fairly obvious' is entirely subjective.

    He was crap in the AIs and his limitations were on full display.

    I don't think he was crap tbh. A few wayward kicks aside, which he has always been prone to, I thought he had a decent series. Brainfarts are not a recent development for him, they're part of the reason he's been so good.

    Lowe is rapidly running out of credit in the bank.

    With Farrell? I'm not so sure tbh. But look, Ward and Kenny will get a run-out next week, Stockdale probably won't be needed at FB so he's an option for left wing in Paris. If Lowe is so bad and the alternatives are so good, his days are numbered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,040 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The only real similarity between him and Lowe is that discontented people on the internet think he should be dropped while no one whose job it is to pick winning rugby teams agrees.

    I mean, to be fair, it seems recently that Leo Cullen agrees…

    And there lies the issue with the discussion. There's a legitimate argument to be made for Lowe to be dropped that you just want to write off as "discontented people on the internet".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,913 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Mentally preparing myself for Lowe starting and Aki on the bench. Again.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭almostover


    That will also mean whichever of Prendergast or Byrne that doesn't start will be left out of the match day 23. If Aki benches then Crowley also has to cover 15.



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