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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    Those aren't numerical outputs in the first screenshots, they are STRs. I never said they were the same profile either. I have no problem with anyone saying things in laymans terms. I also know that you never professed to be a scientist.

    You were though speculating as to why there were no results released and giving the impression to others that you had some greater insight into the lab processes (your retort about giving a comprehensive reply) by describing MVAC, when that relates to extraction rather than analysis. Your initial posts implied that it was a rather simple matter when the fact is it can be more complex and difficult than laypeople appreciate.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I am sorry if I have misled anyone. It was not my intention. Nor was it my intention to imply that i had any inside knowledge - I most assuredly do not. I was genuinely try to help explain the process in a simplified way. I will leave it for you to answer such queries in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    @bjsc, most on here know of your identity, your background in forensics, the fact you have access to the Garda files on the murder and your relationship with Sophie’s family in France. So I hope you continue to put your time in researching our queries and imparting your insights into the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Thank you so much. It means a lot. I really am only trying to help. And I have never sought to mislead. I just try to put things in a way that I hope people on this forum can understand - even if I don't use the correct scientific terminology



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    I got no such impression, it was clearly speculation, and was clearly stated that it was an AI response. Maybe it was just you and not these "others" that you speak of.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Thank you. Unfortunately all any of us can do at this stage is to speculate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    They were saying they didn't understand the delay about the results as MVAC was a quick process. They were also answering other peoples queries about the delay with lab results, not with that's not my area of expertise I'm not certain, but with an air they were an authority on that area.

    They clearly know nothing about molecular analysis, if they saw a report showing STR profiles and think that is a numerical output. There is no DNA analysis technique that gives a numerical output, it literally makes no sense. Which shows they have not even a basic knowledge of molecular techniques relating to DNA. Which is fine. It doesn't mean they aren't a useful contributor, or don't have great insights into the case. But it is obvious to me now how much the are overstating their knowledge in general and makes me doubt a lot of what they have said in the past.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    I saw no overstating of knowledge, what I saw was an opinion based on links to the M-VAC company website and some links to AI responses. It was literally stated that they were AI.

    I am not sure how it could be made any clearer that it was not from authority and why it would make me question any previous responses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Firstly I am not a they I am a she. Secondly I am fully aware of what STR is and how it's reported. However I am also aware that many people on this forum will not have that knowledge. I hope you will agree that a layman, looking at the 2 profiles I posted earlier, would see a series of numbers. That is why I refer to the profiles in that way - as a means of helping them understand the process of comparison.

    In a way it is like setting a quiz. It's no good thinking in terms of "well if I can answer that question than anyone can". Not everyone has the same level of knowledge and in order to make everyone feel as though they are included and possibly in with a chance of winning you sometimes need to ask questions that you, as question master, think ridiculously easy.

    In the same way using terms like STR, molecular analysis etc etc may seem as simple as ABC to you but possibly not to other users on this forum.

    I don't know why you feel the need to insult me in the last paragraph. It is unkind, unnecessary and undignified.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Thanks Bjsc for your response on same.

    I think it's reasonable for anyone to ask why the processes are taking so long, considering it's nearly 30 years and after botched police investigating..any thoughts @OscarMilde. What are your thoughts OscarMilde if not to comment on overall delays of everything in this case. Citing detailed forensic analysis techniques is worth about as much as evidence we have on Ian Bailey being a prime suspect..which is nothing!!



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    For the record @bjsc has confirmed their authenticity on here - she can be taken at her word IMO!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Thanks Bjsc I also respect your opinion and it's highly valued here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    If someone is openly leveraging AI and posting the results it spits out, it is about as transparent as you can be, and demonstrably not portraying an expert level capability when it comes to the DNA results. Like anyone else @bjsc is allowed to speculate about things on here, it's an open forum, and she is actually being way more transparent about her background and experience than anyone else on here.

    As a layperson with some scientific experience I am also surprised at the length of time it is taking for anything notable to come out of the DNA analysis. It is understandable that they may be trying to tie any new discoveries to the people who deposited them, and the process of discerning them may take some time, but as to whether they have found new DNA, and if it isn't Bailey's, that should be well known by now.

    There reason this information would be held back is likely not scientific, but investigative or political I would expect, unless you have any other insights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    I did comment on why it might be taking so long, explaining reasons why matching profiles or even determining a profile might be difficult, as I have expertise on certain genetic technologies, although I am not a forensic scientist and am not 100% on what technologies/analysis methods FSI currently use. I also said it might be that the gardai are not willing to release a result in isolation, preferring to release the entire cold case report rather than drip feed parts.

    My issue with the use of numeric outputs for the STR report is that I saw someone use similar phrasing for the report on reddit, and it makes no sense for someone familiar with STRs to use numeric output rather than marker, fingerprint or identifier. Those words are just as layperson friendly, are actually accurate descriptors of what the report numbers pertain to and informs to a degree. Numeric DNA output was confusing to me as a geneticist and I wasnt certain what the report could contain. There is a difference between simplifying language and using descriptors that are actually wrong and confusing.

    I don't doubt their credentials and background, I just think they don't understand the molecular aspect to a great degree.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    What you actually said in the original post was - "But it is obvious to me now how much the are overstating their knowledge in general and makes me doubt a lot of what they have said in the past". Which certainly appears to me to be "doubting my credentials and background".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    " I have expertise on certain genetic technologies, although I am not a forensic scientist and am not 100% on what technologies/analysis methods FSI currently use."

    @bjsc has posted her Linkedin profile on this forum and it all checks out, including press articles about her career as a senior forensics investigator with West Mercia Police.

    I wouldn't expect you to give up your anonymity on here but perhaps you might eloborate on your "expertise on certain genetic technologies" Who knows you might work together instead of playing childish uneupmanship games.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I agree. I think we should end this now. I only posted my LinkedIn originally not because I wanted to show off but because I was getting badly trolled by a few individuals on here who demanded I prove that I was who I said I was. My only aim is and always has been to bring some clarity and to seek the truth. Let's hope that this year, the 30th anniversary year of Sophie's murder, that may finally be achieved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    The only thing that actually matters is whether they can identify the individuals whose DNA is pulled, who they are, and whether they are stalling the ball on announcing if Bailey's DNA was found. Almost nobody actually cares on the method used, or how the specific values/markers are communicated. And not just laypeople, I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of the gardai, and investigators don't even understand the specifics, that's why experts come and testify after all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    I never doubted they were a forensic investigator. Forensics involves a wide array of disciplines and there may be varying levels of insight a forensics investigator has into each discipline.

    The initial quotes were querying why results were taking so long when MVAC extraction is so quick, when that is only one step of the process. A lot of people seem to think genetics is a case of inputting a sample and a computer spitting out a result. While there are some closed box CE-IVD systems like that within diagnostics labs (and caveat emptor for labs using them) in most cases a scientist is going through the outputs, trying to determine if results are real or artefact, and in the case of mixed samples trying to determine what marker belongs to which individual. That result would then have to be checked by another scientist.

    In a busy lab that might take time, particularly if the analysis is particularly difficult, which I imagine this would be as it involves a novel (for FSI) extraction method and any sample is of unknown provenance and may belong to any number of individuals. It might require discussion of multiple scientists to get a consensus result. As it is a cold case review and not an active case I could also imagine that there may be more urgency in signing out active cases than this case.

    But if you think that less useful an insight than someone giving an AI response of lab turnaround times may vary you do you.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    You obviously want the last word - which is fine with me - so guys, I suggest we let him have it and move on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    And I was explaining why that wasn't a straightforward process and could take time. If no one wants to pay heed to that fine, but I'm entitled to call out people who are minimising the difficulty of it.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    At the end of the day you're going around criticising someone for saying one thing, and at the same time you are not an expert to the goings on of this particular lab either. You're happy to just speculate the same as @bjsc, so it just comes across as pot calling kettle black really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    A level of irony that Oscar Wilde himself would find amusing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I am happy to agree that OscarMilde's knowledge on this subject is superior to mine if it just puts a stop to all the back and forth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




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