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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    “This account, which was first alluded to by the potential witness in the early days of the investigation, is viewed as highly credible, with the person who made the call still available for interview.However, the source is not without complications, as the man was subsequently convicted of serious offences.”

    “First alluded to” is such a joke statement. And let’s not even start with the amount of heavy lifting the word “complications” is doing….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    My understanding, from the statement of the fingerprint expert, is that there were unidentified prints in the house. However he gives no indication of where they were nor whose prints were checked for elimination purposes (other than Sophie & the Hellens). Although I imagine that they would have checked Ian Bailey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    And just who, in all of this, has been convicted of serious offences?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Rhetorical q? In case not, my understanding is that it is probably Chris Thomas [source]

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    This is the final paragraph of his statement. For some reason I can't upload the whole thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I'm slightly puzzled as to why this is taking so long. The extraction process, M-Vac, is effectively a wet vacuum cleaner which hoovers up any cellular material. This is then processed, again a relatively quick process, before the results are sent to the commissioning authority. In this case AGS.

    It is then for AGS to assess the results and compare them with suspects, victims and persons of interest. Always assuming they have, or can obtain, DNA from these individuals.

    What I also find surprising is that it is well over 10 years since French scientists discovered a male DNA profile from Sophie’s boot. It is not Ian Bailey's. And yet nothing appears to have been done with it by AGS. I know Sophie’s family have asked about it and not received a satisfactory reply.

    I have attached a brief description of the M-Vac process from the company's website. As you can see it is not particularly time consuming.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'm slightly puzzled as to why this is taking so long.

    Am I correct in remembering something recently about AGS reaching out to European forces to compare against their DNA databases?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The profile(s) must be available now. I guess they are trying to find a match for it or permissions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I don't remember hearing that but that doesn’t mean it's not true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,154 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    They are probably finding difficulty with that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Thanks for responses here and also @Bjsc.

    My only other question is around your post. For DNA profile that was on boot, surely the AGS has complete access to same for MVAC process. Or is that accurate? .was there any scenarios where the French were reluctant to let AGS dig any further here even with most recent Cold case team or why is this process not more transparent, if it's all we seem to have as different profile.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    For any individual piece of evidence that is correct, each can have a normal explanation, however if they found a fingerprint on a wine glass, and DNA on her boot/pajama, and the same person's DNA on the block, then you would have a pretty slam dunk case. Also remember that that individual would have answered the questionnaire, and also provided an alibi, and perhaps said they never met her or were never in the house etc.

    We shouldn't assume that they will only find one isolated piece of evidence of the killer, could be more likely that there is multiple, as with most murders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭flanna01


    The results must be known by now one would expect?

    As they are not shouting from the rooftops, one can only assume there was no link to Bailey found.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I know it's your line of work @bjsc , but is 6 months an inordinately long time in a case like this? I mean there could have been multiple new DNA traces found and all would have to be followed up, taking lots of man hours. Even if there was only one that they did not have sample to compare to, where would they start?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,742 ✭✭✭bassy


    Bailey free man of Ireland,sure what good is that now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    The analysis itself might be difficult if the sample is degraded, and might require a few more skilled people to sign off on it.

    I'm not certain what the workload is in FSI but I imagine sign out for a cold case is low priority compared to active drug, aggravated burglary and murder cases.

    The other possibility is that the Gardai have the forensic results but are only going to realise it as part of the greater cold case review and not as a distinct finding.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    This is obviously an AI generated response to a Google search. However it is roughly in line with what I would expect. As I said previously the time consuming aspect is not so much extracting and processing the DNA but in identifying any profiles which may have been generated.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    When the French scientists examined the exhibits they did so on Irish soil. The samples they took were then processed in France and it is one of these samples that produced the unknown male profile on the boot. From this it would appear that the boot, along with all the other exhibits is, and always has been, in the possession of AGS. They are also in possession of the French report which gives details of this profile. They are aware that it is not Ian Bailey’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    They are aware that it is not Ian Bailey’s.

    Just to add that it was recently reported that Bailey gave a fresh DNA samples to AGS prior to his death in order to clear his name. I think his previous DNA samples had been used up by previous analysis.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    I don't understand the point of that AI generated response.You were questioning why the results were not available yet when the extraction process if relatively quick.

    Even if DNA was succesfully extracted using the MVAC procedure scientists analysing the DNA and doing comparative analysis are faced with the difficulty that the source of the extracted DNA is unknown. It could be all DNA from one individual or trace amounts from multiple individuals. Mixed sample analysis is challenging, and it is especially challenging if you don't know whether the sample is mixed or not. I'm not certain what method FSI are using for this. If it's STR and fragment analysis with capillary electrophoresis and the sample is degraded, they may have a limited number of informative markers for comparison. Eliminating or matching a suspect may be impossible in this situation, and that is especially so if they are unsure if extracted DNA is mixed sample or not. If they are using NGS and the material is degraded, they may have to contend with dropout or the possibility of sequencing artefact. They amount of artefact differs between platforms (ion torrent far worse than Illumina for example, but ilumina requires greater amounts of input DNA and required fragment length requirements of the platforms may inhibit sequencing of degraded DNA).

    Remember the scientists have to be able to stand over any report they generate and may be required to testify in court. It may take a long time for them to reach a consensus result, especially considering analysis of MVAC extracted DNA is new to them and they therefore have limited experience of possible artefacts arising from possible low concentration samples of unknown provenance.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    That is my understanding too. It is also possible that AGS have access to hospital or post mortem blood samples from Bailey. All of Ian Bailey’s otiginal DNA sample was used up in the testing in 1997 so the French authorities were not able to do a direct comparison. However there are two scientific reports, one from Ireland and one from France. The first gives a numerical value for Bailey’s DNA and the second for the profile from the boot. They are demonstrably not the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Only trying to be helpful I was asked about timescales by other users so was trying to provide a comprehensive answer

    Your post is exactly the point I was trying to make. That whilst the extraction and processing are relatively quick processes. It is the follow up that takes the time. I imagine that the first thing they would do would be to compare any profile to that of Ian Bailey. If there was no match they would then be faced with the task of identifying anyone who may have had access to whichever of the exhibits produced DNA profiles. Bearing in mind it is nearly 30 years since the murder many of those people will be dead or uncontactable. If sufficient DNA is present there is the option of searching the profile against DNA databases. However if there are complex mixtures or partial profiles then this is not a viable option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    I'm not aware of any genetic analysis technique that gives numerical outputs. It's possible that cited numbers in a report are peak fragment sizes from fragment analysis, as genomic coordinates wouldn't make sense in this context to me.

    But you didn't actually say that, you initially were questioning why the analysis was taking so long since the MVAC procedure itself is quick. You then used an AI answer that had a generic answer regarding lab turnaround times as a 'comprehensive' answer as to why a report wasn't available to other posters. That 'comprehensive' answer is nothing of the sort and gives no insight into why a result may not be available.

    It's absolutely fine not to understand how genomic analysis works, but you are presenting yourself as an authority on all forensic aspects of this case when that is clearly not true.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    All I am trying to do is to explain things in layman's terms for those on this forum who are not as knowledgeable as you. I am not a scientist nor have I ever professed to be. I was a crime scene examiner and forensic advisor. I have attached the 2 relevant profiles for you to analyse for yourself. If you think, with your obviously superior scientific expertise, that they relate to the same person then I will stand corrected. If the profile on the boot is that of Bailey then it is even more astonishing that the Guards did nothing about it whilst he was alive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    And incidentally it wasn't me asking about the timeline. I was responding to a post from Zola 1000 on 19th January and trying to explain the various process involved, the possible timeline and why it might be taking so long. I apologise if I have upset you in any way



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭csirl


    Is there any reason why no further analysis has been done on the French DNA profile?

    These days you can get all sorts of info from a sample including the persons origins.



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