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Orange is the new Burke

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    By the way - to actually change direction on the entire topic.

    Can anyone actually come up with a solution ?

    I know - there are a good few here that would just lock him up for life , but that genuinely doesn't make any sense ? Even him being in Mountjoy - is there a lower security option - even that seems OTT ?

    Any outside the box thinking here - could he go to a low security facility - then be let go during the breaks in the school year.

    I don't care what anyone says - we can't lock him up for life - there has to be some aspect of law , human rights , international law, Amnesty international - that makes this case outside normal justice.

    I'm not even saying that below is valid - but can someone logically put forward an alternative or end point of this - again he is in Mountjoy - that makes no sense as we issue a suspended sentence to various cases involving violence towards women - we just had a case of 6 years for murder.

    Prisoners of Conscience (PoCs):

     Amnesty campaigns for the immediate and unconditional release of people imprisoned solely for their beliefs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Again you misrepresent the idea he is imprisoned for his beliefs. He is not.

    Do you actually believe that, or are you actively trying to misrepresent?

    He can stay in Mountjoy til he dies if he wants. It is the best outcome for everyone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    That makes no sense - you can't lock a person up for life - for this case - you are not being reasonable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,261 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Interpersonal skills are learned in school from interacting with your peers and the staff. It doesn't need to be a formal class and its not all learned at home confined to the family unit.

    You're also missing the point about college. No one is saying they are academically lacking or thick. They just can't function in society because they werent exposed to it and were brainwashed at home instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Enoch, who can leave prison at any moment by agreeing to stop being a twat, is the one who is being unreasonable.

    And you are, repeatedly, misrepresenting why he is in prison.#

    If he refuses to obey basic court orders, he can die in prison. The rule of law requires that to be the outcome, and it will be his decision.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Are you being serious that you want him to die in prison - is that in itself a bit odd - the whole thing amounts to a workplace dispute / disagreement



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I am in favour of the rule of law.

    If he decides to die in prison rather than accept the rule of law, that is his decision. Likely influenced by his cult membership, but still his decision

    Why do you keep misrepresenting why he's in (or should be, as I believe he's currently fugitive) prison?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    But there is hardly a case ever in legal history - that a person died in prison - under these terms.

    I know a few examples like the hunger strike - but it is getting a bit ridiculous - or not genuine - or worse if people want him to die in prison



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I don't want him to die in prison - yet again, you misrepresent. Seems to be all you do.

    I have stated that if he continues to break the law, he can die in prison - that is the outcome of his actions.

    Why do you keep misrepresenting why he is in prison?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,998 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    He is free to leave any day he wishes.

    Personally, I think the judge should give him an actual time in prison. Its much easier for him knowing he can leave in the morning if he wishes.

    Give him 3 years with any early release linked to not going to the school.... That should guarantee that he does the full 3 years.

    Should he make a nuisance of himself after that 3 years, give him more jail time.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Well it all started at some point - you can't disassociate the entire sequence of events with any case.

    Anyway - if he refuses to follow the court order - I'm asking for an actual solution - saying he should die is a bit daft.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The solution is he stays in prison til he dies. No other solution is needed.

    Why do you keep misrepresenting why he is in prison?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Why do you keep misrepresenting the sequence of events and reality we now face. If your solution is he stays in prison til he dies - I'd rather deal with Enoch - that makes no sense . As I said we have just had a suspended sentence for a garda that attacked his wife. Suspended

    6 Years for murder.

    He can't stay in prison for like - a solution will need to be found from a more reasonable attitude to the case.

    So are you saying if he crosses a line at the school gate he should die - but if he stands outside that line at the gate - he should live outside the school and have a normal life in the summer and at school breaks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,063 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    What do you think the solution should be?

    The fact that Burke is being so pig headed is what's keeping this nonsense going. And will keep it going until he decides to stop it. No-one else can stop it, unless you think the court system should just forgive him, tell him "naw sure you're grand Enoch, batter away".

    Then Wilsons should let him back into school to continue teaching?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Can anyone actually come up with a solution ?

    The simple solution is for Burke to apologise for his outburst with the principal and complete a community service order in lieu of his contempt of court offences. The school to re-instate him to his job and the court to rule that nobody can be forced / coerced into addressing pronouns going forward. Legislation to strengthen employee rights to be brought forward by government to avoid similar situations arising in future. Time this nonsense was put to bed for once and for all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I have misrepresented nothing. You have misrepresented everything and refuse to ever deal with it.

    Why do you keep misrepresenting why he is in prison?

    If Enoch stays in contempt of court, he stays in prison. The best outcome is that judges stop releasing him for the hell of it knowing he'll turn up.

    We do not need any alternative option. Any other solution is spitting in the face of the rule of law. Enoch obeys the court orders, or he stays in prison - that is his choice he makes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Well the courts do let people off with murder and female abuse and rape.

    I'd say low security and imprisonment around school year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    He is never going to be reinstated. He will never teach again.

    The court will never make such a ruling. The Government will never make such legislation.

    This is not TERF Island across the water which such stuff might fly. Actually even on TERF Island, a sort of equivalent case with a teacher who took the legal approach rather than the contempt approach did not get the outcome Enoch would want.

    His is in prison due to his own personality problems, cult membership and defiance of the law. Nothing else.

    Also, the most laughable bit of your ridiculous concept there is Enoch apologising for anything!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    The courts have made very unusual rullings on murder and rape - I wouldn't be using the Irish justice system as a perfect system with perfect outcomes - all this happened this week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,063 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    They don't let you off with murder or rape. You get found guilty and convicted and FORCED to spent X amount of years in prison to pay for your crime.

    Burke is being sent to prison because he is breaking the law. He has the advantage that he can be a free man, permanently, from right now, if he chooses to do so.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Why do you refuse to answer the simple question I've asked you multiple times?

    It is exceptionally clear you are not an honest broker on this issue. You refuse to answer a simple question as to why you constantly misrepresent why Burke is in prison. You clearly support him in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    There was literally a suspended sentence yesterday - but it is being proposed here that Burke dies in prison for crossing a line at a gate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    He should be re-instated. The school principal would have known Burke's religious leanings long before passing an instruction to staff to use they/them pronouns - it's not like the Burke's hide their views in any way. It was the aggravating factor which is rarely discussed by anyone. A principal doing their job correctly would have held a meeting with all teaching staff and advised they could use the they/them pronoun in class if that teacher wanted to. But no, the principal decided all staff had no choice but to use the pronoun. It was all totally avoidable. The principal should have told the student's parents that while they appreciate the request to address the student as they/them in class, she cannot guarantee all teachers will follow through on it. Simple as. But no, it had to be rammed through regardless. While Burke is one of the most annoying people in Ireland, he is dead right on this single issue. Nobody has a right to put words in the mouth of another. Nobody.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that a former teacher that has cost their former employer hundreds of thousands in refusing to obey a simple court order would be reinstated.

    No aggravating factor matters a toss when someone refuses to obey simple court orders. However, you should note this was the second time such a request had been made - he was fine with it the first time, presumably before his cult leader (his mother) found out.

    He will never be reinstated. He will never teach in Ireland again. Those are clear facts now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Because you are saying you want him to die in prison and want no outcome different to that. Very strange carry on. There is no case in history that the entire sequence of events is not considered - in fact the judge released him to complete due process in a disciplinary case.

    I don't think you are serious that he should die in prison - and if you do think that , I don't think you are a person to have a reasonable engagement on with this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I have never said I want him to die in prison. Again, you just misrepresent everything.

    I said he needs to remain in prison for as long as he remains in contempt of court.

    You still fail to answer a simple question, and we can draw a simple inference from that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    The school has cost itself hundreds of thousands by imposing a ridiculous demand on all staff to use pronouns. Not Burke. As I said above, nobody has a right to put words in the mouth of another, nobody. That is the aggravating factor here.

    The only winners in this are the ones receiving the hundreds of thousands of euros in costs for this case, and they are playing this along for as long as possible to extract maximum coin. It's a pantomime at this stage and it needs to end. Put Burke back in front of the blackboard and pass legislation so this calamity never arises again. That's the proper thing to do.

    As for "he will never teach in Ireland again" - I wouldn't be making bold predictions like that, left leaning people never have much luck with predictions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    This is what you said

    "The solution is he stays in prison til he dies. No other solution is needed.

    Why do you keep misrepresenting why he is in prison?"

    I asked in an honest way - how do we solve the problem - this is yours.

    In the Irish courts this week

    We had 6 years for murder - and a suspended wife abuses case. Proportionality has to come into any judgment and outcome - there is a subjective element to every court in the land - 500 days plus at this stage , needs a new idea -again , why Mountjoy - one of the highest security and maddest places in Ireland.

    Your offering zero humanity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,476 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There is no problem.

    The only problem we have is judges releasing him to see if he'll keep acting in contempt. Stop doing that, leave him in there til he agrees to stop acting in contempt.

    Enoch can leave prison at any moment. Nobody needs to show any humanity towards someone that has shown none themselves anyway, but the point is that he can leave prison immediately whenever he wants to.

    We have a secondary problem of people who clearly support him trying to pretend they're honest brokers, though. You are a clear supporter of Enoch, who refuses to answer a simple question about why you continually misrepresent why he is in prison; along with all your other misrepresentations. Mammy would be proud of you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,012 ✭✭✭✭FixdePitchmark


    Sure how honest is anyone - when they say they want a man dead - then say they did not say that.



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