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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,622 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Great post. Really lays bare the lie that Sexton was ineffectual in that sequence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    The thing that jumped out to me rewatching it was just how physically draining that last sequence was.

    NZ tackled well and committed players to almost each and every ruck, so some guys absolutely broke themselves clearing rucks.

    I distinctly remember the play (Phase 30 above) where Beirne looks absolutely shattered, and literally just folds down when he gets the ball, but to his credit, that was his fourth carry of this sequence (and two of them were very effective) and he was super busy clearing rucks (with one particularly huge clear out along with POM which saved a near turnover). He was literally spent at that point and had nothing in his legs.

    Similarly, Joe McCarthy is a guy who has subsequently come in for a lot of justified criticism for his poor attempted clear out on Whitelock for the ultimate penalty which decides it, but he'd actually shown up very well before then throughout the attack, similarly carrying a number of times and clearing a lot of ruck ball. He had one hugely significant clear out on the right touch line when Conan looked isolated which saved a turnover.

    Every single Irish player on the field contributed in this sequence and had multiple involvements.

    Post edited by FtD v2 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Watch the game. He's in the ground around the 79th minute and he almost can't get back on his feet.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,303 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    He was on his feet for 3 minutes AFTER the 79th minute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    That's just after he clears the ruck?

    Lots of players looked like that throughout that sequence, including guys who weren't long on the field. He did get back on his feet after that and has multiple further involvements in the attack.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭bobo the clown


    I think it was mentioned in one the press conferences. Lancaster mentioned speaking to a player that should focus on playing at 7 if he wants to play for Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,862 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    I'd agree with you, we had a really great side



  • Administrators Posts: 56,524 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Any running threat there or were NZ able to discount that possibility and defend as such? I'm not sure which phase but I distinctly remember Sexton, just outside the NZ 22, looking like a guy who was about to collapse, receiving a pass from Murray off a ruck with a lot of space in front of him and just shipping the ball out without taking a step. Sexton didn't do anything 'wrong' in this sequence, but would a fresh player have done anything different that might have worked? Half way through this sequence it was clear to me, and everyone I watched with, that it would end with a NZ turnover.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,945 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The issue with this post is that one man’s “moves it to the left / spins it out the back” is another’s man’s “shovels it on”.

    Sexton 100% was not the problem some on here would have him be here. We lost this game in other areas (Barrett holding up Kelleher, Doris' spill, Sexton's missed kick, our general poor start, Barnes screwing us on the scrums) but we didn't lose it here at the death.

    Again, nobody has been saying they weren’t bigger factors in the loss.

    But that can be the case and posters can still think it was a mistake not to bring on Crowley.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,622 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    what you think Crowley would have done that would have led to a superior outcome? From what has been posted here, it basically amounts to the idea that he could be more of a running threat. That's unequivocally true, but would that outweigh the loss of control and organization from Sexton?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, well you could apply that distinction to virtually every out half running an attack if you wanted to.

    Most wouldn't, of course.

    The skillset Sexton was most prized for was exactly the one he demonstrated throughout this attacking sequence, his ability to direct the attack, call the plays, and know where and when to attempt the line breaks.

    The fact that three times in this sequence our momentum stalls (none of which were on Sexton IMO) and we once again manage to manufacture go-forward ball and momentum again to me speaks volumes to how well in command of the attack he was.

    This is also the part of Jack Crowley's game that is probably the very weakest part of his skillset as a 10. No one anywhere denies that he at that point versus Sexton at that point was a better running threat, but for whatever delta there is there, it's relatively small compared to the difference between their respective rugby IQs and ability to structure an attack, and that's exactly the reason why the coaches left Sexton out there.

    At that point in a game, you don't want your 10 carrying it willy nilly into contact anyway. Sexton (or any 10) is of far more value to us there on his feet and able to consistently organise our attack rather than chancing a half break and missing three phases while he's on the ground.

    I don't agree with @ersatz above when he says it looked inevitable we would get turned over; the play where Retallick latches on was a superb bit of play from him, but other than that (and Savea's near steal on the near touchline a few phases earlier), we were actually continuing to gain very good momentum and the impact of us repeatedly moving the point of the attack was very visibly exhausting NZ's defenders too.

    The game was on that knife edge pinnacle point where the players on both sides were at breaking point, and it was probably going to be decided one way or another within a phase or so of when it was; either we'd have gotten that one last crucial line break and scored and won or we'd be a second late on a clean out and lose. The latter happened. It's ****, but it is what it is.

    Why we're all rehashing it now for what feels like the 200th time though I don't really get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    He absolutely wasn't a running threat. He passed the ball if he received it. No more than that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,974 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Ronan O'Gara said Sexton should have been taken off. I take the opinion of a former Ireland out-half whose one of the best coaches in world rugby over people here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, brilliant, you've made the same point now about 6 times. Anything else to add to it though?

    What's your view on the following: Sexton's skillset at organising and structuring the attack and his vast superiority at that part of the game to Crowley (especially Oct'23 Crowley) is materially more important than Crowley's significant advantage versus Sexton as a running / breaking threat?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,687 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Great post. Really impressive. But wasn't it Whitelock that got the final steal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    I would be interested to know when O'Gara said this. Was it during the game, or after we lost ?.

    ROG is a well respected coach who has yet to coach at international level and his opinion contrasts with AF who besides being a well respected coach is also an international coach.

    We'll never know whether Sexton being substituted would have changed the course of the game, or the final score, no matter how many opinions are generated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,974 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    We don't know and never will but it was clear as day that he was off his feet with 15 minutes left.

    Somebody put up the phases earlier on but that doesn't tell us anything. He passed the ball but maybe there was an option to run and open up space but he wasn't capable of doing that if it was an option.

    All I remember is looking at him and praying the coach would take him off. No man that played for Ireland deserved success more than him but leaving him on may have finished his career at least one game before it should have ended.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,303 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Maybe......



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,541 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Taking Farrell's decisions over posters on a forum or that of a club coach is fine but he's not infallible



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    A back three of TOB, Stockdale and Zac Ward for Ireland would be tasty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭bingobango12


    Bryn Ward with 2 turnover since I tuned into the Ulster game 15 mins ago. Have to find a place for him in this squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Vinnie222


    Yeah, we all saw how Farrell’s decision worked out in the end 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    10 position heading into a 6N a real position of concern.

    Neither Prendergast nor Crowley kicking well off the tee, and each very flawed as a 10. It says a lot for me that when the games today were in the crunch time minutes the provincial coaches opted to have Harry Byrne and JJ Hanrahan playing 10.

    Harry was poor enough today too.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    My feelings on the Leinster provincial coaching team are well known so won't rehash them, but I don't know how you can't start Sam at this point. Massive flaws aside.

    As I think I read here once, no matter who we start they will probably be the weakest player on the pitch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭almostover


    3 bang average 10s is what we have. I expect Sam to start vs. France. But that gives me anxiety given his defence. Crowley will likely bench because of his versatility.

    Edogbo needs to be in the 19 shirt for the France game with Joe McC at 4. If Conan is fit Beirne may be in trouble for a starting jersey. He hasn't been great since coming back from the Lions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    The Lions hangover thing is very real I think - so many of those guys have been injured or struggling to find form. The sole test Lion for me who’s playing well is Joe McCarthy, and he got injured and missed a chunk of time so basically got a full reset.

    Leinster looked absolutely gassed today with about 20 mins left (some of that was the impact of last week’s game too).

    Three very unconvincing performances from all three provinces so far today, with Connacht still to come. Far from ideal just before 6N selection.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,622 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The shite state of coaching is the main culprit imo. Nienbar is an albatross around the neck of Irish rugby.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I’d be glad to see him gone.

    Cannot ever remember a time when Leinster conceded tries off first phase attacking plays (that weren’t even anything particularly special).

    He’s stealing a living. I was optimistic when he arrived, but it is increasingly clear Rassie is the man who was the Boks brain trust and leader.



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