Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Did Crowley not get clutch dropgoals and win the league just before the World Cup? He was relatively new on the scene but it's not as if he hadn't delivered the goods just before the WC. He showed plenty of cojones to warrant replacing a geriatrically paced outhalf at that stage of the game.

And then went on to be part of a Six Nations winning team.

But he's "not test level". Ah c'mon now.

I didn't mention Farrell at all, I don't have it in for him at all other than hoping he shakes up the squad a bit.

Honestly - a young 10, who just won the URC in a series of games away from home including Glasgow, South Africa and kicking the winning drop goal against Leinster, comes in to a Six Nations after Sexton retires, helps guide the team to the title… and he's not test level, that's quite the take. Hard to know what else he could have done other than win the Heineken.

I mean, you can argue the toss about form at any stage (and I dare say there'll be plenty of that before the first Six Nations game and I'm not setting out a stall for Crowley here at all, I'm looking back to the period we're talking about) but I don't think Crowley's body of work at 10 is comparable with Frawley at all who has 19 starts in his career at 10. He's patently not a 10, he's started at fullback and centre more than he's started at 10. You're comparing an apple and a potato there.

My take is Farrell decided to blood Prendergast. In a way I agreed, we needed more depth at 10, I just wouldn't have done it the way Farrell did with pretty much making SP #1 from the off after something like 4 Heineken starts. I thought Crowley had credit in the bank from the previous season to keep the jersey, needed more exposure himself, and let Sam get his gametime bit by bit. Instead I think both players suffered a bit. SP in the deep end a bit too soon and Crowley gets sidelined and development stifled a bit. Maybe the approach will work out in the end for both, we'll see.

Given the way France and England are going I feel like it's going to be hard for either of them to stand out, Crowley does better behind a pack not on top for me.

blaming Farrell for not developing Crowley fast enough....what are you on about?

That was quite literally the assertion that kicked all this off.

"Farrell made a mistake not getting Crowley to where he needed to be"

I made the point that another perspective would be that Crowley only got where he was in October 2023 through the interventions of Farrell. Maybe JVG would have seen the light eventually, maybe not, but I think we can all agree it should have happened sooner. As someone who spends a lot of time watching and cheering for Munster, I certainly wish it had.

All this is reminding me that some posters, active in the current discussion, were calling for Healy to be capped in the 2023 6N. Funny how things look with the benefit of hindsight.

Its ok if we have a difference of opinion but at least stick to the point

Isn't that the whole point of a discussion, that it can go in different directions?

I mean, we can go back to infinite rounds of "Farrell is conservative", "No he's not", "Yes he is", but isn't the current discussion a bit more interesting?

None of this is remotely relevant. Crowley was his sub ten, that’s the situation the coach was in, end of story. He proceeds with those facts. Assuming Sexton can play 80 and back to back games for 4 or 5 weeks isn’t realistic, inevitably he’ll have to use Crowley. Anyway, all of this has been rehearsed over and over, no one is changing their minds. If Casey is JGPs backup the situation is similar, old incumbent who may not be able for the requirements of the tournament, no matter how good his backup is.

Couldn't agree more.Same crap been repeated.Farrell will probably go after the WC and whoever replaces him will have a big rebuilding job.Pisses me off no one in the media criticises him.Almost cultish.

Maybe JVG would have seen the light eventually, maybe not, but I think we can all agree it should have happened sooner. As someone who spends a lot of time watching and cheering for Munster, I certainly wish it had.

Except that's not at all what you were saying at the time. For example, when replacing Carbery was mentioned a number of years ago, here's what you said:

FFF: Healy had the exact same opportunity when Carbery was injured for so long, and he didn't remotely take it. (Crowley had the same chance btw and was even worse off).

Me: Really harsh reading of Healy and Crowley during Carbery’s injury period, imo. They were both, what, 19 or 20 during the majority of that period?

FFF: Is it harsh?

Healy has just turned 23. Crowley is only five months younger.

Murray was 22 when he became first choice for Ireland. Carbery was 21 in Chicago. Jackson was starting a European final at 20.

Whatever is holding these lads back, it's not youth.

Me: If we're talking specifically about Carbery's injury period (which is what you mentioned), then yes it is harsh imo. It effectively started in Jan 2019 when:

Healy was 19 in year 1 academy

Crowley had only just turned 19 and wasn't even in year 1 academy for another year and a half.

If Carbery were to get injured for an extended period now, I'd be very hopeful one or other would take the opportunity and make it very difficult for Joey to get back in on his return.

The following season, when Rowntree was in charge, a number of Munster fans suggested Crowley should be ahead of Carbery. Here's what you responded with:

• I don't think the Munster management are quite as ready to ditch Carbery as the fans are, or they don't share the unshakeable conviction that Crowley is the better OH.
• I just find it hard to square "Carbery is shyte, time to give the jersey to Crowley" with "Crowley has two starts at 10 all season". It would be a big move to give him the start this week or next.

Yet you're now also trying to claim you wish it had happened sooner, when at the time you were saying things like "Whatever is holding these lads back, it's not youth."?

Instead of saying "ya I agree lads, Crowley should be in" - which you're now claiming you wanted - you decided to take subtle little pops at the player and the fans for suggesting as much.

You defaulted - as you often do - to defending the manager and, by proxy, the incumbent. But Carbery was actually dropped, literally the next game. The point being, even if posters here do disagree with JVG, Rowntree, Farrell, maybe there is something to what they're saying. It's entirely possible for fans to have an informed opinion on selections without having seen the players in training, say.

And - as I'm sure you're aware - stuff like this has happened a number of times on here.

But the main point here is, there's no evidence at all that, at the time, you thought it should have happened sooner and certainly wish it had. In fact, quite the opposite.

This is the point that's never addressed. Crowley, at 24, led us to our largest ever victory in France, a graveyard for Irish teams, just 3 months after the quarter final. If that's not evidence that management erred in their judgment then I don't know what is.

When Sexton was 24 he was still struggling to break into the national side. Everything from Crowley's performance and the context surrounding it in the 2024 6 Nations suggested that he was an international standard fly half and worth persisting with. How the situation has been managed subsequently and how it was managed at the RWC reflects poorly on Farrell and the rest of the coaching staff.

Jesus, if you had told us 15 years ago that a young lad was going to come along and lead us to our biggest ever win in France we'd have taken your hand and all. The amount of revisionism and scutter posted on here in defence of what was a bad decision is indicative of how tribal the supporter base has become.

If you read some of the player ratings he didn't play a particularly good part compared to most of the rest of the team.

That is absolutely the case. If you cherry-pick your player ratings. How about these other ratings from the same game:

Jack Crowley – 9

Johnny who?… We joke, but what a performance from the Munster flyhalf, who is clearly built for the big stage and has added an extra dimension to the Irish attack with his step and pace. Not everything came off, but he was never deterred whilst his goal-kicking was sublime outside of one miss.

Jack Crowley - 8
With plenty of focus on the man who was replacing Johnny Sexton, the Munsterman made a few mistakes but deserves real credit for still sticking to his style.

Crowley 8.5

Jack Crowley – 8

Literally nobody has said he is undroppable because he lead Ireland to the 6 Nations win that year.

So I guess you're allowed be wrong too.

Indeed there have. That doesn't mean people have been saying Crowley is "undroppable".

So I guess you're allowed be wrong too. Again.