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United States as a Rogue state

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭tjhook


    I think the US has probably been the most civilised of the world's historic superpowers overall, although that's not a particularly high bar. Better behaved than the British empire, the Spanish Empire, the Roman empire, etc...

    The position of the US was largely due to cultivating alliances. But those alliances have now been thrown aside. No empire lasts forever and I think what we've seen this last few years is the beginning of the end of Pax Americana. Probably not suddenly in the next few years, but gradually. The US won't descend into chaos, but more likely become like the UK - a superpower that transitions into a strong, influential nation, but no longer dictating world affairs.

    I fear that what replaces it might be worse though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,189 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Think it's going to be a tumultuous decade or so .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭threeball


    I think you better brush up on your history if you think the US is the most benign superpower. 4.7m deaths due to their actions post 9/11 alone. And that doesnt include the war they supported on Palestine. Add in Vietnam, Korea, all the excursions into south America and the fallout from them, Libya, East africa, the list goes on and thats only the last 80 years. The numbers and fallout are scary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭tjhook


    I don't think any superpower is benign, but I think the 4.7m deaths you quote include indirect deaths. If we include policy-driven famines, then the British empire's totals would be many tens of millions, particularly in India but here too. The Spanish empire is reckoned to have caused the deaths of 56 million in the Americas alone by the year 1600.

    "most benign" is probably subjective, but as superpowers go, I'm not sure the US has historically done worse than previous superpowers. But as I said, that 's not a high bar.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Yeah we all need a break from this despot - best close the phone /laptop and go for a walk etc- in fact, newspapers and media take note- reporting what this 21st century Nixon character does is just fuelling him more - starve his media attention and that will slowly suffocate him



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Not such a big man now are you, John Ross- hiding away somewhere like the woman killing coward that you are- rot in hell


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15449879/federal-agents-guns-swarm-jonathan-ross-home-hiding-minneapolis.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 948 ✭✭✭autumnalcore




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭threeball


    As I said, thats since 2001 and this is supposed to be an enlightened country. A democracy. None of the countries you mentioned were that. The world worked differently back in the 1600s and 1700s. America claimed to be a shining city on the hill. It was just a cesspool where the most ambitious and ruthless convened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭tjhook


    If we don't want to go back as far as the British Empire, we could look at the Soviet Union, a more recent superpower, and only existed for 70 years or so. Tens of millions of deaths, and I'd argue that it behaved worse. Although I suppose that depends on political outlook.

    Every superpower thinks it's enlightened, right back to Rome, probably further. And I'd struggle to identify a superpower that wasn't ruled by "the most ambitious and ruthless". The point I was making was that I think the US has historically been better than previous superpowers, but has abandoned the very things that made it so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “I think the US has historically been better than previous superpowers, but has abandoned the very things that made it so.”

    While some of the news in the last year around how America is behaving is grotesque, MAGA has taken off as a response to a more softened leadership of previous administrations - is it extreme? Well it’s starting to look like that, but it’s probably understandable. If you’re an American citizen grown used to seeing miles of caravans of people queuing at your countrie’s border, you might feel somewhat more reassured on that point.

    Internationally Iran looks like the regime is on its last legs- as for Greenland, I think America will gain that ground - is it better they have it than China or Russia? Probably.

    My point really is that regardless of how bad we review this regime, and it is bad let’s face it, there has to be some positives somewhere. Once history is made- Venezuela Iran Greenland NATO- that’s it, there’s no going back- but to maintain sanity, I’ve found myself trying to see where some positives lie- I think it’s exhausting keeping up with daily events- our mental health and reduced worry is important - more and more I’m trying to be less “angry” (albeit I did lash out at that Cnut of an ICE agent above 😀) - that’s probably how I’ll progress when it comes to what America is doing. AI is taking jobs- I can see that very clearly - not being able to work or find work could be a major problem for many in Ireland very soon- people with young families, mortgages etc

    America will do what it will do- I’m resigned to that - I can’t control it - Trump and MAGA don’t deserve our complete attention



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    To the millions dead from American Foreign policy there is no upside, but for those who benefit in some way there is. The reality is that with mass suffering there is usually others benefitting. I am averse to this way of thinking because it seeks to mitigate the harm done by empires. The previous poster is framing US imperialism as more benign because it suits their political outlook. Greenlanders should be allowed to choose their own fate, they are unlikely to agree with you that American ownership isn't all that bad because it could be China instead. What a craven attitude to have. The EU needs to grow a pair and make clear to those around Trump annexing Greenland is not on. Should America take Greenland by force you will be in an awkward position given your stance on the War in Ukraine, but you will probably say America occupying another country is less bad than when Russia does it. You won't be alone with that attitude either, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,228 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Jaysus that's awful fatalist stuff. Not sure what your overall point is. You should start a gratitude journal. Has your life changed that much in a year?

    "as for Greenland, I think America will gain that ground" - Glad you are not on the negotiating team. You're giving up already. I am pretty sure USA will not "take over" Greenland. It's massive you know and mainly ice. They will certainly deepen their strategic and military foothold in order to flex their muscles (sphere of influence) in front of Russia/China etc. They will get ports and mining rights and expand their military bases but I think that will do them. They don't want ownership, they want control and access (new shipping routes as ice melts etc). USA do still need NATO so I don't understand what you're saying there. I imagine there is a deal being back-channeled already with brash media statements being used to influence the negotiation.

    The Danes should lay claim to USA now. Didn't the Vikings land there long before Columbus? Eric the Red or some such. It might have been Newfoundland.

    3 more years. Don't believe the folks that tell you he will do a 3rd term. It won't happen. Hopefully Vance is such a laughing stock by the end that he has no chance.

    I started watching Sky News after swearing never to watch it again 10+ years ago. It's still sensationalist garbage but there are facts to be gleaned. Small doses though.

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,700 ✭✭✭yagan


    It was supposed to be post imperial, whereas now Trump is acting imperial when he states he's running Venezuela now.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The EU needs to grow a pair and make clear to those around Trump annexing Greenland is not on

    I am mystified that people think this hasn't happened. They are in no position whatsoever to threaten military retaliation (though some have suggested increasing presence in Greenland) but the diplomatic statements have been very strong.

    The period of US hegemonic power has been the most benign of any hegemon is not a value judgement, it is a statement of fact. It does not require support for everything they do, nor does it require abandoning hope for a better future.

    Also the talk of annexing Greenland is a bit irrelevant to the point, as the poster was saying that period is over. This is now, in fact, a period of a far more "normal" hegemonic power.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,573 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    so what would happen if trump did seize greenland and collapse nato - a breakdown in transatlantic trade, causing massive economic problems for the states (and everywhere else too)? trump's base wouldn't like that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Pretty much.

    Trump's base shouldn't like the economic impact of his tariffs either. His base doesn't care one iota about material reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    America is acting so far like it always did. The only different is Trump clowns around and admits why they do it. Previous president's would be sneakier.

    The last time a super power went rogue is right now with China building islands on other countries territory in the south China sea and claiming their territorial waters, demanding Taiwan joins it as a country and the ethnic cleansing of the uyghurs. They make the US look like saints under Trump. But the left wing MSM have a softer spot for the communist China dictatorship then democratically elected Trump in his capitalistic nation.

    Not to mention the other super power Russia who currently occupy Moldova (proxy), Georgia and a brutal war of conquest in Ukraine. Big supporters of the other brutal regime's like north Korea, Iran, China and Venezuela.

    By all means condemn trump's actions but let's not sugarcoat the rest of the world's super powers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Hard to have a soft spot for Trump though, the guy is a paedophile. A democratically elected paedophile, tells you alot about the people voting for him.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    America is acting so far like it always did. The only different is Trump clowns around and admits why they do it. Previous president's would be sneakier.

    This is complete nonsense. They are absolutely not acting like they always did, either domestically or in foreign policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I never said American ownership of Greenland was not “all that bad”- I said their ownership would likely be viewed as less bad than if China or Russia took it.

    Where have I given a “stance” on Ukraine in my post? Of course Russia taking Ukraine is a desperate act- just as America taking Greenland would be- but none of us here will change that is my point. We might feel better calling Trump all sorts of names but that’s not really changing anything either- we know his playbook at this stage so nothing really surprises.

    Russia China and America appear to be our overlords on this planet now - NATO without America will take decades to get back in the game -.we can all cry about it here or just focus on things we can control and seek what little positivity there is. Long term we’re all fcked on this planet - I’d hate to be living 100 years from now



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,228 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The Chinese don't describe it as "demanding Taiwan join it as a country". Their rhetoric is the peaceful return of Taiwan. It's all about perspective. They already think Taiwan is a province of China.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    They could do more.

    They need to spell it out in the strongest terms to US Officals in private that Donnie will be fleeting, but the devastating negative consequences of taking Greenland will far out last him. The EU are not going to try and take on the US Military and there is no need to. As regards US foreign policy, the previous poster(tjhooker) was not being specific to one period, he was making a value judgment based on his own political outlook that US foreign policy has been more benign than others. That is purely subjective.

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We have absolutely no idea what they are saying in private though?

    Yes, tjhooker was not being specific to one period. The US as the global hegemon has been more benign than any other global hegemon in the past. I genuinely don't know how this can be up for debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Yes. Donnie says the quiet part out loud. Rubio then tries to be the diplomat and dress it up in nicieties as previous presidents would do. Donnie has taken us back centuries, whereby states didn't feel the need for pr to jusify their conquests. I agree its a bit much to condemn Donnie but give the Chinese a free pass. Its also hypocritical for those who like to utilise the look over there defense to excuse American foreign policy

    Post edited by nacho libre on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    We don't, i am saying i hope such discussions are taking place. This could all be Donnie playing Hardball to make Greenland a vassal state rather than a real intent by him to take control of Greenland outright. As to whether US hegemony is more benign in comparisons to others, we will have to agree to disagree. I mean some defenders of the British Empire, like Andrew Roberts, would argue the same in the defense of the British Empire. He wouldn't be swayed by statement of facts to the contrary. So in the end it still seems like a value judgment to me based on personal views rather than an objective statement of fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    You are speculating it would be viewed as less bad. In any case I doubt that argument would be of comfort to Greenlanders who genuinely fear Donnie really means to take over Greenland. As for the rest of your post, it's a rather glum and defeatist attitude. Although it does mirror advice I was given years ago:)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    I must have missed his conviction? You completely missed my point though. They take a harder line on Trump then far worse regimes and unlike the others Trump will be gone in 3 years anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,254 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Peaceful? They just straight up say it's part of China and it's rejoining is inevitable while surrounding it with live fire military drills. All this while there's no chance Taiwanese ever agrees to join democratically. A bit like how Russia think Ukraine is part of Russia?

    You've also avoided the other issues with China. Ethnic cleansing and the south China sea maritime territories? If Trump did the things China has we'd never here the end of it. But like with MSM you're taking a harder stance on Trump.

    I answered the OP quite clearly. Russia and China are rogue states already and worse then trumps America.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,228 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Relax, I was just giving you the Chinese perspective on Taiwan. I am not defending it.

    Ok they are all rogue states...what can possibly go wrong? About 20 years ago a lecturer in UCG told me that all wars in the future will be fought over resources. He predicted a global conflict over the lack of resources given the population growth etc. The Chinese were busy securing resources for their growth over the past 20 years (especially in Africa) and USA have started to block that (e.g. Venezuelan heavy oil). He also said fresh/clean water would become a vital resource so my own Lough Corrib could be liquid gold yet 😉

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,656 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    We can definitively say that he was found to be a rapist in a civil court.

    In terms of business as usual. He's threatening to invade a European territory and appears to very much so want the end of NATO. He's also got a huge amount of submission for dictators and tyrants and depending on the day of the week, he seems to be sidling up to Putin. He's even gone as far as saying the he trusts Russian intelligence services over the US or Europe. He's actively blamed Ukraine for their invasion and attempted to publicly humiliate their leader at a public event.

    So nope, Trump is very much so not business as usual. And that's ignoring domestic issues including labelling a woman who was murdered by ICE as a terrorist.

    Trump supporters seem intent on classifying every single insane act as normal. It's not. Some likely are in denial that they've happily supported a tyrant. Others likely want a Temu Putin for the US. Either way, basic rationality has gone or the window. Timothy Snyder, an expert on the rise of fascism in Europe during WW2 has been highlighting the parallels for years and you guys have happily ignored the warnings.



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