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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Link to the article...

    Seems strange that the initial statement was thin on details and as such didn't appear to hold much, if any, weight in then initial investigation so it woukd be great if it was a proper lead and just incompetence in the original investigation

    One thing that jumps out at me (and hopefully it is just some Sheridan fantasy) but this should be concerning to everyone if true - "the witness says in the new statement, seen by The Sunday Times". Has the CCR evidence really been shared with the media?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Wasn’t it Sheridan who came up with this a while back?

    Working alongside Forensic Science Ireland (FSI), the team carried out intensive testing over an eight-day period at Garda Headquarters in the Phoenix Park. The recovered DNA could be a decisive step toward justice. “It is hugely significant because it could not have been deposited by anyone other than the killer,” a source told The Sunday Times. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    If true then it confirms that there was more than one person involved or at least present at the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,782 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I’m very surprised this phone call hasn’t come to light before now-.How many 3am or whatever phone calls to a home number who aren’t family would happen normally? Shirley this would have stood out?

    If it had been Bailey/Jules on the line, guaranteed it would have been in the evidence against Bailey - so I’m assuming the person who made the call is not connected to Bailey



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I am sceptical of anything that suddenly emerges decades after the event.

    But if there is anything material in this, if a female did, in fact, contact this individual at 3-6 am on the morning in a distressed state, then it seems to me that, probably, only two females would fit the theory……….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,782 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Let’s wait and see- the DNA investigation and what they test for within that investigation will be crucial now - if this person is someone with known access to Sophie’s house or immediate surrounds that does bring this into a whole different ball game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Why only two? I can think of at least 3 possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Only two females?

    I can think of several women who were acquainted with Sophie, and maybe a couple more who were associated with men that are known to be "persons of interest"

    Shirley, the next door neighbour

    Mrs Hellen, the housekeeper

    Mrs Ungerer - (long shot, I admit) - (who would she call?)

    Also - Jules Thomas, associated with Ian Bailey

    However - the lady that rang up our un-named source in the dark hours may not be any of the above; she may be associated with the criminal - but why did she choose this source-person to ring up with her distress?

    Is the nameless source a journalist, a police officer, a doctor or a priest? A female friend of the caller?

    If you knew something about a murder - had witnessed it, or been told of it by your boyfriend or husband - who would you call?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Is the nameless source a journalist, a police officer, a doctor or a priest? A female friend of the caller?

    Good question. Presumably more than five people would have the number for the local priest or doctor. I'd also assume that a garda would know to include detail in the statement. Was there another journo living in the area?

    It may just have been a neighbour to the caller.

    But the witness did say "At the time I thought it might be a drunken person ringing me or a wrong number" which would indicate that they didn't know the caller (so how did the caller get the number or was the caller one of the five who did have it?)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,782 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    You would think given the person had only shared their phone number with certain people, that they would be able to deduce who it was-.at least on reflection. Maybe they felt on the balance of probabilities that it was a misdialed number.

    But I get the feeling this story won’t go anywhere- not the first time that the Times has printed stories that on the face of it look like a breakthrough- only for it to go nowhere.
    I won’t hold by breath on this - I’m not sure the rest of Ireland will either - it’s the anniversary after all so the “season” for such stories unfortunately



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    But the witness doesn't say that the caller was unknown to them.

    In fact, if ever my bedside phone rang in the dead of night, (back in the day when it was all landlines) it often turned out to be someone mis-dialling a taxi rank, or a drunken person too far gone to make sense; that would be my first thought on being woken by a very late phone call.

    Having once picked up the phone, though, it might be a real call, from someone I knew. It once turned out to be bad news from Australia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Well, it seems to me that if ( and its a big if) this information is accurate, then the call was made at least four hours before the claimed discovery by Shirley.

    It follows then, that the person was either at the scene ( Shirley herself) or with the person who actually committed the murder. ( Jules?)

    If the murderer was not Bailey, then, I guess, a partner of the actual murderer could be a third possibility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    Not necessarily…it could easily have been the wife or girlfriend etc of a violent man who has just staggered in, blood-boltered, and blurts out or boasts that he has just bashed someone's head in.

    She is horrified to hear this - and from the bloodstains she can see that it is true - but afraid to make a scene or provoke the actual perpetrator. Deeply upset, she rings up X and tells them - then, for some reason, cuts off the call. Threatened by the killer? Could be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I think this new story is unlikely to lead anywhere. Why didn't gardai investigate this lead at the time of the murder if a statement was given? If the witness is saying that only 5 people had her phone number than it would have been very easy to investigate this further ( how likely is it that the caller dialed a wrong number?).

    Ita just Michael Sheridan keeping the story in the news and making more money for himself. I don't think the gardai would share information with him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I think even if it had gone to trial in Ireland, he would have had a strong argument that prejudicial statements had been made by the authorities that would undermine his chance of a fair trial. Also, the loss of evidence such as the gate would have hurt the prosecution's case.

    We know from the UK miscarriages of justice e.g. Guildford Four, Birmingham Six, that non-disclosure of evidence was a factor in their original convictions.

    To my mind, its not good enough for the prosecution alone to decide what is and isn't pertinant evidence.

    I also get the impression that other suspects should have been considered.

    Maybe it was Bailey that killed her. But when was the last time you heard of a national newspaper journalist committing a murder? Bailey claimed that his criticism of Gardai in his journalistic career was a factor in them singling him out.

    The fact he had committed domestic violence against Jules Thomas obviously strengthens the case against him.

    But usually, men who kill women are known to them, particularly partners and husbands e.g. the Rachel O'Reilly case. In the U.S., the Bureau of Justice Statistics finds that women are 3–4 times more likely than men to be killed by someone they know, usually a partner. It couldn't have been her late husband who was in France, but Bailey claimed in 2017 that he stood to gain from the life insurance payment when she died - though when asked for evidence on this, he admitted he had none. He also claimed her late husband was having an affair when Sophie was killed.

    Did she have other partners in Ireland? Were they questioned?

    Also what about a financial motive?

    I think her elite background may have resulted in political pressure to not investigate if money was a motive.

    Post edited by Ozymandius2011 on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It is interesting, but most likely nothing in terms of "beyond reasonable doubt". An anectotal memory from a phone call nearly 30 years ago? Could be true or not? At best, it's a hint into another direction, nothing more. Didn't the woman give her name in the call? If not, were the voices not recognizable, if only a few people had the number? That's all a bit odd, when you think of it.

    The French elite background certainly lead to that kangaroo court and then the French elite was satisfied. Under normal circumstances this wouldn't have lead to a conviction not even in France.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    The fact one of the central witnesses also made accusations against other Gardai could have played either in favour, or against the prosecution if it had come to trial, depending on whether or not the jury believed it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    There was a reported mention by a Garda? of Alfie having a party that night. Now if person(s) at the party (if there was one) killed her it may well have been witnessed. The wine bottle could be explained by this. Of course was there a call and was there a party?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The whole party story and seeing Alfie’s lights from Hunts Hill was just figment of some Garda’s imagination. They had to try and place Bailey at the murder scene.
    Alfie and Shirley watched a film on RTE and had been in bed before Bailey left the pub.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Lecter8319


    the telephone call does sound like juicy new information especially if it took place at the time reported. More than likely the gards wife after realising what he’s done & coming back with blood all over his clothes. Probably took a beating off him then



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Pure crazy conjecture. My own musings are a bit tenuous too but I think this is beyond mine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 268 ✭✭Lecter8319


    At the end of the day, theres as much evidence against him as there is Bailey. Not surprised the Gardai havent released their new evidence yet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Remembering a telephone call or remembering somebody with blood all over won't lead to a conviction either, it's nothing beyond reasonable doubt. These are just another couple of stories which one can believe or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Fairly sure these journalists just have numerous tidbits of information that they have gathered over the years by just repeatedly going round and round to the same old witnesses and squeezing more and more out of them. Problem is, in the squeeze they’re surely just pulling out false memories and mixed up stories at this late stage

    They just slow release this stuff to give themselves a steady output to meet whatever article quota they’re supposed to hit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    You're correct on that. The murder has become a constant money making machine for journalists and movie makers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,911 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    It looks like nothing found in Bailey’s detritus pointing towards evidence or a confession, which won’t come as surprise to most on here.

    https://www.thesun.ie/news/16296616/ian-bailey-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-evidence-gardai/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    At this stage even a confession would be doubted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I suppose that's the only thing missing. A catholic priest coming forward anonymously about a confession and the media reporting on it….. Even if it's made up, the media would have a field day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I was thinking more of a legal confession by someone to the authorities on the killing but that is also possible I guess even if the seal would prevent disclosure?



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