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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I didn't say that it was not the garda from Bantry. I said that i don't believe that there was a bias or cover up by AGS to protect him.
    I did also mention shoddy work practices by the investigators as there obviously can be no dispute about this.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Legally there is most likely no basis for this, but theoretically and also with trust in mind it would have been a good choice if say the cold case was investigated by others than the Irish Guards.

    Suppose they'd sent a couple of police officers from the US over, or Canada, or Germany or some other country unrelated ( not French ) to the case, with full access to everything.

    Because of the botched investigation by the Irish Guards they would always be seen in a bad light and some would never believe them ( I wouldn't blame them), - at least not in this case.

    But as written, legally that would most likely have been impossible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Hi all. Would it not be certainty at this stage that the Mvac results are now ready and that it is either IB or not.

    At least an initial statement to indicate weather it is not IB then AGS are pursuing other angles following the current results of Mvac analysis or if there was nothing at all...then the AGS would have accept and publish that and say nothing of any evidential value has been found. Just seems extensive delay. Were the Mvac team not gathering evidence in August/September?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “Hi all. Would it not be certainty at this stage that the Mvac results are now ready and that it is either IB or not.”

    There’s a myriad of possibilities playing out behind the scenes.

    1. New non-Bailey DNA has been found and the investigation is active around finding this person - tipping off the public for obvious reasons not the cleverest of ideas
    2. DNA has been found that is likely belonging to someone living in the area who had regular access to the site (a neighbour for example)- investigation focusing on likelihood of that DNA being placed there on the night of the murder
    3. Whilst partial DNA is found, its inconclusive - tests might be continuing
    4. Baileys DNA confirmed- whatever tests are continuing to ensure they’re correct on this along with going through Baileys diaries and personal effects to see if anything further is there


    At this point, no news is good news in that all outcomes are currently a possibility - if ultimately they say that nothing was found of any consequence then we may as well all go home as aside from a clear confession or statement from someone who knows the truth, we’re done here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭Zola1000


    Thanks for that. Yes guess lot more logical approach there and in them points you have raised. Hopefully there will be something or anything to go on to proceed with evidence. It will have be seen as one of most anticipated pieces of information to come out in Irish history or any criminal case...if it does. It's truly sad the feelings the family must be going through to have wait for so long.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,155 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Coming up on the 29th anniversary of her killing. I wonder will there be any developments in December?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I guess all eyes are focused on the DNA testing completed in late summer/early autumn -hopefully some form of breakthrough was made - if there’s a statement around saying nothing for operational reasons then you would hope that progress has been made



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    As far as I recall the statement by the police was that only if there was any new evidence in the cold case investigation an official statement would be made. If there was nothing new, nothing conclusive, nothing would be mentioned or stated. And if nothing new has been stated, then there is no new and conclusive evidence.

    I suppose they have had a large number of new leads, made various investigations into various directions but couldn't find anything same as with DNA, possibly lot's of new leads, but nothing really new.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,769 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Amazed we still have not heard anything. Really thought we would by now.

    EVENFLOW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,656 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    My guess is there's no match so they're just not commenting.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Shirley they would have thought this through when they announced the testing earlier this year - it raised people’s hopes of a breakthrough on a murder in one of our communities - they can’t just keep their mouths shut now- that’s just feicing pathetic if they do



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I woul think there are at least two possibilities with the mvac recovered DNA

    They haven't matched it with any of the 10 or so people they took DNA samples from already - indicating the murderer is probably not among the existing suspects.

    They have matched it with someone who could have a legitimate reason for their DNA being there and further evidence is needed to rule them in or out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    You'l get the annual update next week, a copy and paste of any random anniversary report from the last 29 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    And of course a begging bowl for more police funding at the various Garda conferences next year but not a word about the millions wasted on this investigation through the years with no results



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I'm not sure they even still have the profiles of the previous suspects (except Bailey of course), and in addition I wouldn't expect them to have obtained anyone else's profile ahead of time.

    Having said that I think if they do find a new profile then it will come out sooner or later, whether by a leak, court order, or just an announcement. I still believe if they had found Bailey's DNA we would already know about it.

    I hope that they will do a new push for witnesses coming up to her anniversary (which they have done periodically in these types of cases), and that would be the perfect time to announce they had found DNA, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    They basically have nothing new, quite possibly a whole lot of data, but nothing pointing to one specific suspect. And suppose they found DNA matching somebody in France, there could be a perfectly innocent explanation, a friend of the family visiting, and having touched that block at some point for whaetever reason, etc…

    There is always the possibility it was a Guard and they certainly won't ever admit that.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    There is always the possibility it was a Guard and they certainly won't ever admit that.

    I dont think the current CCR team, nor the new Commissioner, would have an issue disclosing that a retired member was a suspect. I don't think any garda serving currently would protect a hick garda who possibly is involved in one of Ireland's highest profile murders - why would they?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It doesn't sound likely agreed, but there could be the issue of public trust in the police, with a portion of pride as well. Not impossible. It's also possible that the mentioned Guard from Bantry was simply unpopular and involved in a whole lot of other things so the locals always implicated him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭Gadgetman496


    The search for "disappeared" man Columba McVeigh has ended without success.

    The Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains has confirmed that the most recent search on Bragan Bog in County Monaghan has now concluded without locating his remains and that the McVeigh family has been informed.

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    they wouldn’t release that information normally - they may well have had a number of “suspects” through the years- but Gardai don’t tend to publicly point fingers at people (albeit I’m aware of the irony of when Bailey was first arrested and the absolute b0ll0x statement issued by the Gardai at the time around Bailey being a danger) -it would ruin their investigation and jepordise any subsequent legal proceedings - this guard and others could well be suspects and we wouldn’t know .

    But given the passage of time and the inordinate cost of this investigation, the Gardai should be held to account in some way- even if it’s through a closed session from the minister for justice office - they’ve spent decades telling us it was Bailey - so what’s changed now- all interested parties including the public deserve answers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    All true.

    But part of the answer we do have, namely that the police investigation was completely botched and unprofessional and there should have been disciplinary consequences for the officers involved.

    In the end, we can't blame them for the unsolved crime or for not finding the right evidence leading to a conviction, but we can blame them for their clear and obvious misconduct and mishandling and for implicating a man without any real evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

    Letting the matter linger and drag on endlessly will raise a trust issue in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    They were denied the right to interview all French persons of interest. It's beyond unlikely they have DNA profiles for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    Yes, and this is a very important point. Pivotal even.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Exactly, it's farcical really. They ruled out suspects without ever even having interviewed or investigated many of them at all. Like it's understandable to some extent that they ruled in Bailey/Jules, but how they whittled everyone else out to just leave them, and only them, doesn't really add up.

    The French were uncooperative, and in fact they were the ones who already found new DNA in the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,783 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    I know we’ve been here many times- but given the pace of this thread has slowed to a crawl due to lack of any new information, looking at your post and those above, highlights the serious information gap in this investigation - I don’t think anyone here is saying “it was the French”- but you can’t have a comprehensive review unless you have access to all people of interest - we’ve seen cold case reviews take 180 degree turns based on new thinking and evidence - even recently -there’s very little opportunity in this current investigation that would allow Gardai to do that if they don’t have access to people of interest, especially foreign nationals , living abroad



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's very obvious ( even without evidence ) that the whole investigation and the later following legal matters were rigged from the French side by powerfull friends with influence, and hampered by an incompetent police force from the Irish side continuing on without any disciplinary consequences.

    That's the main reason the killer couldn't be found and convicted.

    Thus the cold case investigation has a farcical connotation.

    Personally I still think there was a strong likelyhood of a "French connection", like husband sending somebody or similar, maybe even relating to her work? Fact is even without evidence, there is far more power, influence and money on the French side and a woman with certainty alone at a precisely known and rather remote location in another country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Looks like there is work being done aside from chasing the DNA.

    From a Michael Sheridan piece in The Times on Saturday;

    “The witness spoke to gardai in 1997 but omitted a crucial detail: a landline call received between 3am and 6am on Monday, December 23, 1996. Their latest statement corrects that gap. At the time they lived in west Cork, where the Frenchwoman was found bludgeoned to death, but later moved abroad. The cold-case investigator, however, tracked them down and conducted extensive interviews.“The phone call was on a landline and very few people had my number at this time,” the witness says in the new statement, seen by The Sunday Times.“Five people [names redacted] and maybe one or two … had my number. The content of the call came from a female in a panicked state saying something awful had just happened and it was clear the caller was distressed. There was no real conversation but panicked ramblings, and I said, what could I do?“At the time I thought it might be a drunken person ringing me or a wrong number. It was on reflection the following day that it could be something connected to the murder. There was a piece on the radio that asked for anyone with information and a garda confidential line. I rang the number and reported the phone call. A few days later then gardai came and took a statement.”The initial statement was thin: no detail on who held their number, no names or localities, and nothing about the caller’s panic and distress. Armed with the fresh information, investigators narrowed their focus and have identified the caller.The individual has yet to be interviewed for strategic reasons, according to insiders, but the case team ranks the meeting as a priority given that vital details were withheld in an earlier statement. Investigators believe the passage of time — and new material such as witness corroboration and potential DNA — may alter the dynamic when the interview takes place.”

    I can’t post the link for some reason.

    The headline is “Fresh witness statement may open up Toscan Du Plantier case.

    The London Times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    If this is true, then it's dynamite.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Well, it is Michael Sheridan. He has printed some rubbish in the past. We’ll see if it’s picked up by any of the other press.

    If it’s true, the 3am-6am timeline would be interesting.



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