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Time to stop investing in heavy rail in Ireland.

  • 07-12-2025 04:33PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭


    Apologies for the click-baity title but I've spent years invested in the belief that we could use our heavy rail infrastructure to provide the backbone of a modern public transport system for Ireland. I've now stopped believing it - it seems we will do everything to avoid simply using the decades old formulae which have revived heavy rail across Europe and the rest of the world.

    It's clear from AIRR with a focus on providing rail links between villages and small towns and the latest government announcements of prioritizing projects like resurrecting a rail service between Claremorris and Tuam, building stations at the outer edge of Moyross, working on a Navan extension and the complete inability of IR to sell the concept of metro heavy-rail or intercity electrification to the politicians and seeming almost complete public indifference, that spending any more money on heavy rail is more or less a waste in terms of impact of improving public transport in the country.


    It's the hope that kills you as they say and the last NDP has finally killed off any hope I have that we will ever prioritize heavy rail investment correctly. We've gone from having an RO for DART-U in 2009 to the watered down DART+ (still a good and impactful project) to only committing fund to electrifying a single branch in the current development cycle.

    All the old excuses are gone - lack of funds, planning hold-ups, global pandemics, financial crashes, etc. - and we're left facing the depressing reality that the politicians and the public simply have little interest in modern heavy rail as a transport mode.

    So I say finish DART-W, CACR and bits and pieces like the shovel-ready level crossing projects and then let's just call it a day. All further rail investment should be in standard-gauge light rail - city trams/metro-like systems only maybe with a few Strassenbahn like extensions to inner commuting towns.



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,297 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    “A station on the outer edges of Moyross” is following exactly the decades-old formula you claim is being ignored, but perhaps you’ve skipped a section of that plan: First, add new stations to existing lines to encourage usage, then connect them to multiply the benefits. Limerick at least has a through-running rail link already, although I accept that could be improved.

    I don’t see how you could classify the the AISRR as being about connecting small villages. The bulk of the proposals concerned inter-urban service improvements, and logical measures to increase inter-regional use of rail transport - that was the project’s remit. High-frequency commuter rail services were outside of the scope of the report, so DART not being mentioned means absolutely nothing.

    The old excuses are not gone, unfortunately.

    Back in 2011, DART Underground had been shelved about a month before the RO was granted - the filing of that RO application in 2010 was a real shot in the dark, but the extent of the damage to the economy was only partially known then, and as DART Underground was supposed to be delivered as a PPP, there was hope that the private partner could take more of the cost on. That turned out to be impossible, as construction companies were also going bust left, right and centre.

    There is enormous blindness among the general public at just how much the domestic economic supports for Covid and then the energy crisis caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine really cost, but then, the true scale of the debt we took on after the 2008 financial crash also seems to be hidden by constant reference to it as a “% of GDP” ratio. All of this means that, unlike in 2007, we now have a huge debt we need to service: we will pay €5 billion in interest this year on our national debt (currently €170 billion). That €5 billion would have built the DART Underground as part of DART+. Back before the crash, our debt was less than a quarter of what is now - take inflation into account and the ratio is even lower - this is why we had such ambitious plans back then: we were genuinely cash-rich as a country, even if it all just turned out to be a scam (also not a surprise to anyone, but it’s amazing how many of the political figures who now always knew this at the time, publicly backed pouring more petrol on the fire back then). Back then, we also relied heavily on PPP schemes to deliver infrastructure: a method that has very much fallen out of favour, so now the government has to pay for everything up front, rather than palming off a lot of the cost to a private business that will then gouge charge users in hope of recouping that money.

    I disagree with the NDP re-prioritising roads to the detriment of mass transportation, but I feel that the government’s TDs are already getting grief over those decisions, and the pendulum will swing back: There are 74 Dáil seats in the counties that DART+ runs through: no government can exist without listening to so many voters, and the voters are angry about this.

    I also don’t believe that DART+ SW will be deferred until after DART+ W is running, although I never believed that they’d be build concurrently as some here seemed to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    “A station on the outer edges of Moyross” is following exactly the decades-old formula you claim is being ignored, but perhaps you’ve skipped a section of that plan: First, add new stations to existing lines to encourage usage, then connect them to multiply the benefits. Limerick at least has a through-running rail link already, although I accept that could be improved.

    It is not following a decades old formula which is based on exploiting the competitive advantages of heavy rail in the modern world which is either speed (intercity) or frequency (commuter/metro).

    The services from Moyross will provide neither. There will be 9 services a day to the city centre, from a particular bleak and windswept part of Moyross (which is already spread out and is one of the lowest density housing estates in Limerick) at the very northern fringes of the city (with only farms to the north and east). If your need to get to "town" from this area of the city just happens to coincide with on of these sub-hourly services and you're prepared to walk up to 1km (in the opposite direction of where you want to go), it will take longer than the various bus routes that serve the area (which take about 10 minutes and between them provide better than 10 minute frequency) and deposit you a 10 minute walk from the de-facto centre of the city. If it achieves more than 50 boardings a day, I'll eat my hat. This is just rail for rail's sake.

    Quite bizarre to claim that Limerick has through-running? Every train has to terminate or turn around in Colbert and the "network" is mostly single track (not that that matters for the alignment that is to serve Moyross - there isn't the demand to fill enough trains that would justify double-tracking say Limerick to Ennis which would be impossible without CPOing a bunch of private houses). The existing alignments are the classic non-through running pattern with a meandering loop around the outskirts of the city which does not align with any demand which is nearly all radial.

    I don’t see how you could classify the the AISRR as being about connecting small villages. The bulk of the proposals concerned inter-urban service improvements, and logical measures to increase inter-regional use of rail transport - that was the project’s remit. High-frequency commuter rail services were outside of the scope of the report, so DART not being mentioned means absolutely nothing.

    Look at the AIRR map - yeah there are some improvements to the intercity trunk routes but the vast majority of it in terms of new stations and new alignments involve "filling gaps in the map" by connecting small towns far from Dublin, Cork or Limerick - many of them even less compelling than connecting Claremorris to Tuam by rail.

    The age of heavy rail for this type of journey (between small population centres of in the scale of thousands) is over - like canals there was a compelling reason in the past but with competition from roads (buses or private cars) these sort of infrequent and relatively slow services just will not attract custom these days.

    There is enormous blindness among the general public at just how much the domestic economic supports for Covid and then the energy crisis caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine really cost

    Maybe but not by me. I fully accept that metro north and DU were never going to be built in that cycle once the GFC hit. Large capital investment was simply impossible to consider until after 2014 when government finances turned the corner. But I'm not sure what your point is here?

    My point was that in contrast to our approach to light-rail - MetroNorth came back from the dead as the vastly superior MetroLink and despite a considerable increasing in cost, seemingly has full backing from the public and politicians. DU came back as DART+ and now only has commitment to fund one branch of it - the contrast in ambition is stark. Meanwhile funding and construction has been given the go ahead for Tuam Claremorris. If we cannot make the correct decisions to prioritize heavy rail projects, then we'd be better off spending the money on light rail and better bus services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,297 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    There are multiple “AIRR maps” that we could cherry-pick until the cows come home, but the important part of the report is the recommendations, and the priorities that are attached to them. The things you are complaining about are all listed as low-priority nice-to-haves. The bulk of the report’s high-priority recommendations are for the electrification, speed improvements and double-tracking of existing, busy inter-city routes, and the provision of more direct inter-city routes parallel to lines currently shared with busy commuter corridors where the alignment cannot support additional tracks, plus measures to decarbonise the existing rail transport network.

    My point about government finances is that things are still not as good as you think. You say 2014 was when we turned the corner, but really we are still turning it. We are still carrying a large debt as a nation, and it’s only hidden by constant referral to it as a percentage of the GDP of a buoyant economy dominated by extraordinary levels of pass-through income from multinationals - "33% of GDP" sounds like we’re doing great, but it’s a mickey-mouse statistic because it uses GDP. In reality, it’s about 67% of GNI* - and it is only that low because the government was paying it down in the late 2010s - COVID and Putin reversed that trend. We really should be running at around 40% of GNI*, but in 2007, we were at about 20% of GNI* - an extraordinarily low ratio. The fallout of our massive property-asset gambling losses in 2010 is still crippling the government finances, and we are still not in the position to spend that we were back in 2005-2007.

    I don’t see a difference in the treatment of heavy versus light rail. To me, the light-rail picture is as bad, if not worse, based on the NDP document. I would point to the absence of even a mention of any additional Luas line in Dublin in this plan, and no funding commitment made to Cork Light Rail.

    The original Dart Underground proposal isn’t comparable to the DART+ with Tunnel, as it was pretty limited in scope: basically DART+ SW minus the Phoenix Park/Cabra link, plus the tunnel; DU made no recommendations about the Western line, or about service extension to Drogheda. DART+ is a wider-ranging plan, and the usage improvements from DART+ will make the case for a tunnel irrefutable: the tunnel element of DART+ failed on cost to benefit, but I feel the benefit was understated because the ridership models were out of date: population growth and the potential for development at outer stations was not properly considered.

    Nobody has said the Western Rail Corridor will be definitely be built except the local TDs who know their words will soon be forgotten. The NDP allocation is funding a project to look at the reinstatement of some or all of the line, and the first step is an investigation of the options. Reopening the entire Tuam-Claremorris link is costed at €200~500 million (about a third the cost of DART+ SW) although I don’t think it’ll be anything like that cost in the end. My own belief is that only Tuam-Athenry will progress to actual construction, and that would be pretty cost-effective as a way of providing a Galway commuter rail service.

    DART+ SW is not cancelled, all that happened was the construction phase was shifted. I believe it will shift back, partly from political pressure, and partly because of the realities of tendering. The project is still under way in parallel with West; AtkinsRéalis were awarded the construction design contract for both the SW and W branches, and will bring both to the procurement stage. It’s going to be very clear when that happens that tendering both as a combined package will provide better pricing to the state than simply offering work on one with a promise of maybe getting the second sometime.

    In short, the prospects aren’t as bad as they seem. There should be more done, but there’s no downgrading of heavy rail, more a reluctance to spend money across the board on anything that isn’t a road. That needs to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    I somewhat admire your optimism but I don't share it. There is no political pressure - the councillors who were complaining last week have moved on to other things. Darragh O’Brien's "commitment" to the project extends to "looking at it again" if a big bag of money magically appears from somewhere in the next few years - the exact source of this extra money is not clear - with some hand-wavey vague claims that maybe the EU will provide it.

    It's no longer a media story so the pressure to backtrack just isn't there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,297 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It’s not the media putting the pressure on. It’ll be the voters sitting in their cars for three hours a day, but also IBEC, the American Chamber, and all the other major business interests in the city, who desperately need DART+ or any intervention in commuter transport to solve their hiring problems. Right now, I don’t think anyone would relocate to Dublin given the cost of accommodation and horrors of commuting - that’s hurting businesses that want the best people working for them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Oh Lord gjim, it's not anywhere near as bad as you think. Have faith!

    I'm actually very optimistic about where we are and where we are going. There is a clear shift in policy, reduced planning hurdles, a reduction in NIMBYism, and very clear funding commitments to multiple projects across a wide breadth of areas.

    I see it panning out as follows... Specialist focused teams working on the same type of project moving from one section/project to another:

    • electrification upgrades in Dublin

    • double track upgrades in Cork, other sections identified in AIRR

    • restoration of disused lines on Foynes, WRC, Wexford, Navan (a mix of teams)

    • passing loop and second platform additions at Oranmore, across the entire network, particularly regional areas

    • upgrade of level crossings on Cork-Dublin, then transitioning to other areas

    • Luas Finglas construction, transitioning to Poolbeg, Lucan, other areas

    • Bus Connects core corridor upgrades

    As each of these specialist teams build up resources, knowledge and experience, they can get each project completed faster than the last and at reduced cost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    That won't do anything to fix the issue - which is that DART+SW is ready to go to tender and we should be lining up for a 2026 construction start as part of a tender for both it AND DART+W.

    I've gone over politician's statements and see absolutely no grounds for optimism or that the timelines are likely to change. I'm reading the Irish politicians' equivalent of the US politicians' "thoughts and prayers" responses to mass shootings. Basically just platitudes. The Taoiseach's response was he would talk with his minister but what was the result? Who knows. And the ministers response was "don't worry maybe something will come up before 2030". There has been no formal review announced or any timeframe given for when a change could happen before 2030.

    It's madness - there are homes for tens of thousands being built along this corridor right now and that's before you consider the plans for a massive future expansion under the current city development plan. These homes will be occupied in the next year or three - and the new inhabitants will be expected to squeeze onto PT which is inadequate to provide a decent service to the existing population.

    NOT proceeding with DART+SW immediately, now that it's fully ready to go, from a 250 Billion 5 year budget is shocking. I mean you couldn't pick an easier way to add a fully segregated DART line into the city - except for a section outside Heuston it's 4-tracked, the demand is there and is growing rapidly, the existing stations have the platforms. In terms of own-goals, it makes the decision to defer extending ML to Sandyford look reasonable.

    I'm willing to bet money on a site like longbets.com that construction of DART+SW will not start before 2030, if anyone is interested?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,297 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Not taking your bet, but I’d happily donate to a charity if proven wrong. How would you define “started” anyway? If signalling is put in place, or just one road bridge is modified for the extra tracks, or a substation is built, or new electrical distribution installed, that counts, and all of these are pretty likely to happen in concert with West given the how many different work packages there are in a project of this size.

    For example, anyone bidding to build the substations would give a better price per unit to do 18 (West plus six for SW) than to do 12 (West only)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    I had imagined that the bet would be towards charities of the participants' choosing. I'd love to lose the bet tbh but I just don't see it.

    The condition would be that a contract had been awarded for a major part of DART+SW - say electrical infrastructure, OHLE or 4-tracking the gullet. Not even that construction had started.

    For example, anyone bidding to build the substations would give a better price per unit to do 18 (West plus six for SW) than to do 12 (West only)

    Of course! That's what's so outrageous about the decision to split the projects and defer a decision on funding work on DART+SW until 2030. The works for both should be tendered together. Splitting them is fckin madness - the worst sort of penny pinching given the size of the NDP budget - which will end up costing more money and, worse, years if not decades of more time.

    Plenty of talk about what should happen, what would be sensible, what makes sense, how you'd roll teams of experts from one job to the next. And I agree with all of it. It's just that the NDP lays out clearly that we are NOT going to do the sensible thing - instead IE will issue contracts for work on DART+W in 2026 but have been told that no funds are available for DART+SW until 2030.

    You know I'm not one of these hysterical posters who constantly whine about the state's inability to develop infrastructure or suggest conspiracy theories. I generally respond to such posting pointing out historical context or obvious reasons why spending priorities were different in the past or how circumstances forced the state's hand.

    But I just cannot get my head around this - that out of a 250 Billion 5 year budget, that DART+SW - which would represent maybe 1% or so of the budget has been deferred. It's a no-fcking-brainer project - there's nowhere in the country, or even Europe, where you could roll out 20km of fully segregated metro/commuter electrified alignment with so little effort or cost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    Oh Lord gjim, it's not anywhere near as bad as you think. Have faith!

    Appreciate the effort loco - I need cheering up. Maybe it isn’t as bad as I think but I can’t see any upside at the moment.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 226 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    "So I say finish DART-W, CACR and bits and pieces like the shovel-ready level crossing projects and then let's just call it a day. All further rail investment should be in standard-gauge light rail - city trams/metro-like systems only maybe with a few Strassenbahn like extensions to inner commuting towns."

    Funny you say this, as I came to the same conclusion a few weeks back looking at the last All Ireland Rail Plan. It is not really a public transport plan for the most part. The Tram-Train technology is so well developed now it is logical way to go for Navan - Drogheda (they could still build Navan North station), Waterford-Lim Junction and a few other locations. Why no one has thought of making Limerick Juction a UK Parkway-like station I am not sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    We can keep reinventing the (broken) wheel, but the net effect is that nothing happens. Metro North and Navan were the low hanging fruit when it was politically unacceptable to cut social welfare in 2010. The net effect is that we still have bloated public services and not enough infrastructure to cope with the economy.

    When the Shinners get in it will be rinse and repeat. Infrastructure is not a reward for an economy, it is a prerequisite.



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