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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,552 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    I know a lad in Boston who learnt Irish in school too, in America. He was never in Ireland in his life. A few people in school were from Ireland and sometimes called him Amadain, and he learnt that word, so he says he learnt Irish in school in Boston.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I've already pointed out that Ulster Gaeilge was the more widely spoken dialect in my home county long before the claims that Blanch threw in here and Francis is attempting to parrot without actually understanding. It isn't meant as actual historical discussion, it is meant to gloat and demean.

    Their assertion is that because the dialect originating in Donegal spread into the western counties of NI pre-partition that when the last speaker of (in my own example) Fermanagh-originating Gaeilge was replaced by Ulster Gaeilge speaking, that it means the language was, 'imported'.

    Still no explanation from any of them on how a bloke was speaking a native language the day before partition but it suddenly became imported a day later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,552 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    If that was the case FrancisBrady is wrong, and the newspaper headline was at least misleading, as it led people to believe Irish was banned in Northern Ireland.

    Anyone I know from N. Ireland "back in the day" never came across the Irish language in school at all. Never saw it written anywhere, never saw any northern newspapers or magazines "as gaelige", and never heard anyone speak it.

    About as rare as someone uses it on boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl


    I think that for 2-3 decades post partition, primary schools continued as they always had pre-partition i.e. as per those in the rest of Ireland. Maybe in more recent decades, as the curriculum became more prescribed, they became more like the rest of the UK.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Was Irish 'banned' in NI?

    Yes, it most certainly was. In the Courts and Local Authorities. Taught in schools under punishment of funding removal. Normal suppression techniques of colonists.
    Did the Irish language 'die out' in NI.
    No it certainly didn't.

    You can huff and puff and try to pivot, but your day's work has been a waste of time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    this seems a very interesting little podcast. I have only listened to snippets, but certainly worth listening from about 24 minutes.
    Sam articulates how Sinn Fein is the greatest friend of unionism, so far as ensuring the union is safe (that’s my spin of course on what he is saying)

    I was laughed of this forum for suggesting that if there was a UI that it would be logical that OWC would remain a distinct country within it it, just like in UK - Sam doesn’t laugh, that’s for sure!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnk-60TW8c8&t=1845s



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well at least Sam and the lads aren't labouring under the 'NHS is a jewel' fallacy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    The fact that a former editor for the Newsletter is talking about Unification really doesn't make for the win you think this is. I don't think you'd have to go back too long for anyone who has had any involvement whatsoever with the Newsletter to be dismissing a conversation about Unification outright with derision rather than discussing it. Listening to the hardline end of Unionism discussing their acceptable, 'terms of surrender' on the union rather than the old faithful shouting, 'never, never, never' is pretty significant progress. If that's what it would take to satisfy the Newsletter crowd on Unification, it really gets one thinking what it might take to convince the much less entrenched middle ground.

    I'd agree with your take that SF and their usual b*llocks do a better job of promoting the union than they do pulling much of the middle ground towards Unification, but you manage to ignore the equal but opposite irony; that Unionist parties and their refusal to get behind anything Irish do more for pushing the Unification argument than keeping the union among that same middle ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    firstly, sam McBride is long left the newsletter, and has never pulled any punches in challenging unionism, even when in the newsletter, eg he tore strips of the Dup for the biomass heating issue - and wrote a book about it.
    I agree that extreme unionism is the other side of the coin (on this issue) as SF. Difference is the onus is not on unionism. Republicanism has had over 100 years to convince ‘Nordies’ that they’d be better off on the dark side - they had 33% wanting a ui then and, depending on which poll, they’ve lost a few points or gained a few points - and that’s considering Brexit, the American billions in ROI, a 30 year sectarian conflict, 7 Eurovision wins, etc, etc.

    everyone should chill and learn to be good neighbours



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Conversely Unionism had 100 years to consolidate the Union and are now in decline and increasingly insecure and being tacitly led by a bigot from social media. And are losing every single strategic battle they take on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    strange analysis. I understand that republicans hate ‘blue bin boy’, and I understand why. He is certainly putting a rocket up them.
    he has certainly came from an unusual place but he is certainly supporting political unionism to replace their focus on flags and parades, and to start achieving through ‘lawfare’, equality and the courts.
    if unionism wins the court battle in January, it will completely scupper the shinners attempt to green the north. Then unionism and nationalism, and everyone else, can have a discussion on the visible portrayal of culture and identity that is respectful and equal.

    If unionism loses that court case, then the culture war is full on. I hope it’s the former.
    it would be lovely to see eg unionism support the erection of Irish language signage and republicanism support the flag of the country flying 365 on top of city hall. We can achieve so much together



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bryson has lost nearly every lawfare case taken. I feel sorry for him not hate.

    It is cringe watching or reading him trying to turn them into wins.

    And what will Unionism seeking to get their veto back (basically what 'culture war' 'lawfare' means) achieve?

    Nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    I'm aware of Sam McBride leaving the Newsletter, my point was that no one who was in a senior position at the Newsletter would ever be considered as sitting anywhere near the middle ground on the constitutional question.

    It was not an aspersion on his journalistic talent or integrity. I think I've said previously in our discussions that I have plenty of time for him even if I disagree with him on some political positions.

    Unionism's head in the sand approach and insisting that nothing has changed (as exemplified by the rest of your post) is a pretty good tactic for sleepwalking into Unification.

    What do the numbers trend like in your own lifetime for people who say they'd vote to stay as part of the United Kingdom? It's a damn sight lower. Trends have shown a gradual increase in support for Unification over time, a drastic drop in support for remaining in the UK and a very notable increase in the Don't Knows. Those with a bit of cop on like Sam McBride understand the implications of this....political Unionism however? Pictured below

    1000053559.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    wishful thinking Francie, caused by embarrassment.
    here is another one, just popped up now on social media.
    Jamie has been saying this for months and nationalists have been laughing at him.
    seems the penny is dropping in nationalist circles

    IMG_1693.jpeg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,844 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    shame on you - learn the history of the place maybe. Irish was only supported catholic run schools - generally secondary level and not at all in primary level. the british funded schools didnt even teach Irish history nevermind the Irish language

    If youve never heard people int he north speaking irish in the 70s/80s/90s then you were hanging out with the wrong crowd. there were pubs were it was spoken more than english was and in places like Carrickmore in Tyrone, the kids learned it at home and spoke it as much as possible. The british government though wouldnt support it at all and as mention would withdrawn funding from a school for teaching it (which is why non government funded schools would teach it)

    I think you just stuck to your own and werent interested in learning about any culture that wasnt your own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You slunk away after posting his triumphalism (false as it turned out, inevitably) over the Palestinian flag. His lawfare attempting to get a judge to direct it's removal FAILED.
    This is more vainglorious 'I was right' tweeting. Pol Deeds never claimed he had 'unilateral powers'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    the flag issue is still very much live.
    Council voted to put the flag up at midnight the very evening of the vote. We all know why.
    jamie has asked some very interesting questions since eg:

    An FOI submitted to get copy of all communications between the Council solicitors and the shinners that day.
    also question about where the flag appeared from at a moment’s notice - this one will be particularly interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You had him on here laughing that it would never fly….it did and the court denied the bid to get it taken down.

    He loses any significant case he takes and his ‘lawfare’ is only showing the middle ground that what belligerent Unionism wants is their veto back, which is never happening- UI or no UI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    time will tell if the flag flew legally.
    I don’t think anyone of sane mind could have predicted that a city council would hold an evening time vote to have a flag flew, which they were legally prevented from flying the week before, and then fly it that very night before it could be ruled upon.
    why do you think they put it up that very night? And why do you think they put it up?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The judge refused to direct it be taken down.

    Why did they do it at midnight? Because they could?
    Bit of advice, the courts seem to be getting mighty pissed off being used like this and even more pissed off by unelected tweeters sitting in the body of the court directing affairs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    you avoided my 2nd question. Why did the put the flag up? IE what was honestly the purpose of putting such a decisive flag on top of city hall?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I did answer - because they could.

    Nothing divisive about it unless you think the city belongs to you and you can veto even a majority decision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    a very silly answer. ‘Because they could’

    The equivalent primary school answer up here is ‘because, just because’.
    I expected a little more, but I guess the fact you won’t answer is an answer in itself



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I did answer.
    You not liking the answer is your issue tbh.

    The fact is the courts allowed it stay.

    Bryson’s suprematist gloating firmly rebuffed. Again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    my question was clear.
    why did republicans put up a Palestinian flag on city hall.
    your answer was pathetic ‘because they could’. Up here kids say ‘because just because’

    We could say that to anything eg Q. why did the Ira burn prods to death in La Mon, A. Because they could, etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wasn’t just republicans.

    Those who wanted to show support for the victims of a genocide put the flag up because a majority decided they wanted to.

    And you ‘can do these things’’ when you have enough support like any normal democracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    One could ask the same question about why you want the Union flag flying 365 days a year, Downcow. Whether you like it or not, it is a divisive flag in the context of NI. You've posted today about how you think that is entirely reasonable (despite not being in line with how the flag is flown in the rest of the UK.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,067 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    @downcow, Jamie etc will be telling us that a government/executive/council can only show support for the folk they support. 'It's our inalienable right not to have our support for colonial and genocidal regimes challenged, it's 'our wee country' after all'
    Yeh won't be getting a UI unless you promise not to upset/offend us.'



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    you know it has nothing to do with concern for the people of Palestine.
    here is an article explaining some of the reasons

    https://x.com/3000versts/status/1997325164799750646?s=46



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