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Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,423 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    maybe i shouldn't be giving them ideas. you can bet your ass at least one of the family is aware of this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,440 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ledwithhedwith doesn't say why he thinks the house won't be demolished, and he makes no real effort to defend the suggestion that, if it isn't demolished, this means that the whole episode has been less than disastrous for the owners.

    Essentially, his argument is "they got to live in a large house", but that's not a good, or even tolerable, outcome for them unless you attach enormous value to living in a large house and don't care how much you pay, or what other opportunities you give up, to do it. That may align with Lewithhedwith's own priorities, but he has no reason to think that it aligns with the priorities of the Murrays, and much reason to think that it doesn't — namely, the efforts they went to, and the amount of money they spent, trying to avoid this exact outcome.

    The truth is that most people who build or buy a large house do so in the expectation that they are acquiring an asset that will have a substantial residual value when they no longer need or want to live in it. They would never dream of entering into the transaction if they were told at the outset that this would not be the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    It wont be demolished because it hasnt been in the last 20 years. I recently posted an article from 2010 with the judge giving them 24 months, its a joke. Id be shocked if its demolished. Will we do an aul 50 quid bet for charity for the craic?

    And ah i do agree its been a shite scenario for them etc, i still wouldnt say the they have fucked around and found out (this was the comment that made me post)until their house is demolished. The council hasnt exactly shown much teeth imo.

    When do you think it will be demolished? Anyone hazard a guess?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The Council cannot and will not set a precedent such as this. You seriously underestimate the impact that would have.

    As for when it will be rubble, unless the Murrays find some new angle to raise a legal objection (and it's doubtful it would even be entertained at this stage similar to their last challenge regarding the fact the sterilisation orders were never legally and formally in place), I would see it being demolished within two years. Their last failed challenge and the comments by the judges are very much an indicator that the courts' position is that they knowingly and purposefully built without planning permission and have already dragged this through the courts with every possible argument, and been rejected.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    I hope you are right! If boards is still alive ive set a reminder in my calendar for 2030 to come back to ya😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭GavPJ


    I'll put €20 on it being demolished before the 32nd of Never.

    What odds you giving me?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Hahah this is my exact thinking, id be shocked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The judge gave them a stay of two years in 2010 on humanitarian grounds. However, the Murrays then continued to tie up the case in legal challenges and appeals, renewed retention applications etc.

    No further dispensation on humanitarian grounds is likely, and the Murrays have likely exhausted every legal avenue. The Supreme Court in their latest ruling in November refused to permit further appeals by the Murrays.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Thats fair enough, when is meath county council going to demolish it? Apologies , you are the poster that said within 2 years



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,567 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    You need to put that question to Meath County Council.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I'm guessing/estimating a general timeframe. Funnily enough, I don't have access to the schedules of Meath County Council, nor can I anticipate if/how the Murrays may seek to challenge the decision further or how many courts they may drag such a challenge through, or how quickly those courts may rule on it or decide not to permit those challenges at all.

    The only thing I can say with any relative degree of certainty is that Meath County Council will not set a precedent and allow the Murrays to keep the house, or to take control of the house themselves to repurpose it for another use. That will not happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,708 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    If it’s never demolished, it sets a precedent that you can ignore planning law in Meath. That’s too big a precedent to set.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    They arent on boards, do you think it will be demolished?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭Homer


    has any county Council in Ireland ever demolished a residential property built without planning in the past?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Your argument is based on nothing other than your own opinion.

    Our argument is based on Meath County Council spending 15 years and a lot of money in legal fees to enforce this, all courts ruling in their favour, and standard legal practices regarding setting legal precedents and the consequences of that, as well as the fact many of us work in professions dealing with planning regulations and local Councils.

    You're entitled to your opinion, but your argument boils down to little else other than "I think…"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    You are correct its just my opinion , there is also zero precedent of a family home being knocked down after 20 years in Ireland , no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Not sure to be honest, dont think they have 20 years later but all the posters on here seem to think it will. I admire their faith in the legal system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Rulmeq


    This house used to be twice as big as this (back in the 1990s): I believe it belonged to an infamous carpet sales man in town https://maps.app.goo.gl/DVRRaJwVHZuh9wH27



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭csirl


    It doesnt matter how many Court Orders are in place if there is no enforcement. Getting an Order is only part of the battle - enforcing one is the difficult part. Ireland is extremely poor at enforcement of anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Eh , one link is a developer having to demolish (very different), one is a timber cabin and the last is this feckin house you must have seen 2006 on it and assumed it was demolished



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Considering the Council first issued enforcement proceedings against the property back in 2007, the fact the house is almost now 20 years old is irrelevant. The only reason it's been taking so long is the Murrays constantly dragging it back through the courts, and they have now likely run out of legitimate reasons to do so.

    But to flip your own argument; if any Council had previously decided not to knock down a family home after 20 years even though every court ruled that they could or should, then a precedent for a Council to make such a decision would have been set and the Murrays could have used that precedent to argue that Meath County Council should grant them the same decision (as all councils are ultimately subject to the same planning and development legislations and regulations). But that has not happened.

    A comparable precedent does not need to have been set in this case as the decisions made are within existing legislation and regulations already in place to cover such a situation, namely that the possible enforcement decisions for unauthorised development includes demolition of the structure. It being a family home of 20 years is irrelevant. Every single level of the relevant courts in Ireland have already ruled that the decision made by the Council is correct and enforceable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Fair enough , you think our legal system will prevail. I dont think it will at all and this house will be left standing. I will leave it there because you are right, I dont have much to say other than ive no faith in the authorities doing whats right in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    In fairness, the authorities have been trying to do what's right. They've been trying to knock it down for 15+ years. It's the Murrays who have abused the system by bringing so many legal challenges and revised planning applications which they know won't be granted. They may find ways to continue to do so, but I think the Supreme Court not even hearing their latest appeal and basically refusing to hear any further appeals has meant the Murrays have run out of road.

    The Council want the building demolished and done with, it's by far the simplest and best resolution for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Are they technically free to demolish it tomorrow? Or do you know how that works at this stage ? I feel like theyve had to be seen to fight it but wont do it in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I would imagine they would have to give the Murrays a reasonable timeframe (say 6 months) to find alternative accommodation (or to engage with the Council regarding emergency accommodation) and move their stuff out of the house, at which point anything remaining in the house would be destroyed/discarded, and if the Murrays had not left the house by that stage and were impeding the demolition, they would then be subject to criminal proceedings including fines and/or imprisonment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Thanks, Fingers crossed it does happen. Do you think them building it twice the size has mattered in all this? Its definitely rightly pushed away any real public sympathy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,928 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    It mattered a bit, but not a lot. Even if they built the same size as they had been refused planning for, the reason for refusal was the sterilisation of the land. I've said before that Councils will generally try to grant retention permission for something which could reasonably have been granted planning permission or which could be modified to be more aligned with what could have been granted planning.

    In this case, no house would have been granted planning permission on that site, and they built one anyway. Yes, building twice as big lost them any degree of sympathy and demonstrated how they just elected to fully and flagrantly ignore the Council's decision, but the outcome would always have been the same; the Council would not permit a house to be built on that land, so any unauthorised house built there would have to be demolished.



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