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Donald Trump the Megathread part II - Mod Warning updated in OP 12/2/26

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,541 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    The JAGs that Kegbreath and CFTrump fired have a working group that has weighed in on the events and the recent story about the orders involved.

    The statement is here: (https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/1pa8pgr/statement_of_the_former_jags_working_group_on/#lightbox)

    Money quote:

    'Our group was established in February 2025 in response to the SECDEF's firing of the Army and Air Force Judge Advocates General and his systematic dismantling of the military's legal guardraisl. Had those guardrails been in place, we are confident they would have prevented these crimes.'

    Yes, they're calling them crimes and asking for investigation. As I recall a lot of JAGs got moved to become immigration court judges, which is another problem too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,921 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Its not really disingenuous, its just a way to try and dodge and shut down questions. Trumpesque tactics, what did you expect?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,932 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    It was never 'acceptable enough'

    The statute of limitations on murder and war crimes is a hell of a lot longer than 2 months.

    And its not like your guys decided to lay low and wait for it to blow over, they continue to murder people and escalate the violence.

    If you had any honor you would refuse to defend these criminals

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,240 ✭✭✭Field east


    MM, I I did not think that you are into a ‘bit of whataboutary. You are questioning why nobody responded to the first shooting up of a boat ‘ ‘carrying drugs destined for the US. Rather than immediately ‘speculating ‘ as to what had happened and going public with it some people/groups would get to know the facts, see reports, avail of info from whistle blowers , avail of ‘ leaked’ info, etc, before going public .
    So would the above be of some help to you in explaining why the questions being asked are only now being asked?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Another long winded post to sound intelligent but essentially could have just written "you didn't notice when it happened first so shut up about it now" 🙄



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,920 ✭✭✭threeball


    When has the US ever abided by the Geneva convention. They have actively targeted civilians and non combatants on a regular basis. The Collateral damage excuse is thrown out like confetti. They have tortured pow's, and even just suspects as well as illegally extradition and holding without trial. They have openly stated that if war criminals were taken into custody, they would launch a mission to free them.

    The Geneva convention doesnt apply to the US. They don't even recognise the ICC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,921 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    I feel like the "If" has been answered a long time ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Lets hope any investigation uncovers any links between these acts in the Caribbean and the introduction of new rules by the Dept of War restricting Pentagon journalists from doing their jobs which led to most of them leaving the venue.

    The UN should speak on the US's abhorrent war mongering but of course it won't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭fish fingers




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,361 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    There won't be an investigation. Not unless the dems get control.

    Manic has always said that soldiers need to follow orders based on those orders being legitimate. Which I agree with.

    But here we have clear signs, both from the footage itself and Hegseths claim, that there are serious questions to be answered.

    So where is the evidence that the lawyers either preapproved or even post approved these actions?

    Under what set of laws as they considered legal? Hegseth seems to be claiming they are acts of war but is that correct? If war has been declared does that not require Congress to vote?

    Has Bondi published her written advice? Did Trump sign off on this? What officials in the DoW, FBI or other agency approved this action.

    Why is the DoW involved? Is this not a criminal offence and as such the FBI/CIA should be leading it.

    So many questions and yet MAGAs are completely silent.

    What it shows it that people are willing to accept pretty much anything once they believe its to protect US (or their particular country



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Distractions while MAGA leadership line their pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,932 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Its long been the practice in the US that whatever is ordered by the top brass is by definition a legal order.

    And on that understanding. MM would order his troops into a civilian neighborhood and shoot people hiding in their own homes if he was ordered to do so by his commanding officer.

    He might feel uneasy about it, but he would arrest any of his subordinates who refused to follow those orders.

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭amandstu


    Are the lawyers preapproved anyway?Are they independent of the President and his groupies?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    No, it's an indicator that things are not so cut and dried. If they were, for example, surely even the lawyer the news agency in the quoted report asked who questioned the legitimacy of shooting the boat might perhaps have said something about shooting survivors changing the legal issues.

    I'm not saying "shut up about it now", Leroy is correct that there are questions which can be asked. Some of you want to skip waiting for the answer before being definitive about it.

    For the "this was an unlawful order which should have been refused" situation to be in play, three things must have happened. One criminal, one stupid, one incompetent.

    1. A known unlawful order must have been given (and then followed by a second person)
    2. The officials who gave the briefing to Congressional Staffers chose to display evidence of a known unlawful order being given and carried out to those staffers (who themselves, presumably being persons of reasonable sense and understanding apparently didn't find much wrong with the follow-on).
    3. After the briefing and the details leaked out, even those who are members of anti-war/victim justice/anti-Trump groups who normally would pounce at anything (whether we as Irish board users noticed it or not, I'm fairly sure they would have), apparently decided there wasn't much to be in arms about.

    It's possible that all three things happened.

    It's also possible that the order was not known to be unlawful, which would explain all three.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Not knowing an order to be unlawful is not a defence as case law has shown:

    It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful.

    To many people firing a missile at 2 men hanging on to a disabled boat in international waters would be a crime. It seems pretty black and white to me.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would argue that what has changed is the reporting that the second strike was on the basis of an explicit (and explicitly illegal) "no survivors" policy. Even in the scenario where the strikes themselves are legal (in US jurisdiction at least) it is basically impossible to formulate a scenario where a follow up strike designed to simply eliminate shipwrecked survivors at sea is. The only remotely plausible defence is that the reporting is wrong and the follow-up strike was deemed militarily necessary but that is a frankly ridiculous stretch that no one should be gullible enough to believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,159 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    The objective of the first strike was to stop drugs reaching America (ignoring any casualties to achieve that),the objective of the second was murder, plain and simple and no way to justify it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    "For the "this was an unlawful order which should have been refused" situation to be in play, three things must have happened. One criminal, one stupid, one incompetent"

    Wrong. For it to be unlawful it only needs to be criminal. That's pretty cut and dried.

    Stupid and incompetent are only factors in getting caught but for the US army those have always been bigger crimes than murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,633 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I was of the misguided opinion that you were posting here in good faith on the legality of carrying out orders. You now posting a link that you were aware off 10th September shows you clearly were not and will attempt to jump through any hoops to justify Trump`s use of the military to further his political aims. Up to and including the murder of civilians.

    Hegseth`s defense yesterday of this first strike was "our current operations in the Caribbean are lawful under both U.S. and international law, with all actions in compliance with the law of armed conflict".

    According to the Washington Post two members of the Pentagon staff who were present stated that his first order was to "kill them all" and when that didn`t happen leaving two survivors clinging to the wreckage, he ordered a second strike to kill them. Both those orders from Hegseth were in violation of the Geneva Convention and were war crimes. Yet here you are where you would still happily follow those orders knowing they are unlawful under the Geneva Convention.

    A law which incidentally, and the legal advise upon it is based, which has been seen by no one other than a select group of Republican Senators where even the Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee has been denied access too.

    In your own link even Secretary of State Marco Rubio gleefully admitted this was nothing other than a shoot to kill directive where there hasn`t been a single piece of evidence - contrary to Trump`s claims of floating bags of cocaine and fentanyl - from any of those 21 strikes that killed 83 people that any of them were transporting drugs. The only two survivors of those strikes were not prosecuted but sent back uncharged to their own countries. Had their boat been carrying drugs it is implausible to believe they would not have been front and center on U.S. soil in a perp walk attempting to justify this murderous illegal campaign by this administration.

    Now that this house of cards is tumbling down around your ears, those of Trump and the rest of his ghouls you would be happy to hear nothing more about it believing that we should wait to see what various inquiries reveal in the long as a piece of string scenario. Can I take it that based on what we now know that similarly you believe that this illegal policy of sinking boats and killing all on board, plus Trump`s sabre rattling on Venezuela should also cease until, at the very least, these inquiries have concluded ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,088 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Judges appointed by Ronald Reagan have become outspoken critics of Trump. Those still on the bench are ruling against him, and one has resigned in order to be able to speak more freely.

    When U.S. District Judge William Young ruled this summer that the Trump administration illegally canceled hundreds of research grants focused on gender identity or diversity, he went further than just striking the revocations down. 

    The Reagan-appointed judge, who took the bench in 1985, said it was his “unflinching obligation” to draw the conclusion that the administration’s move amounted to racial discrimination and discrimination against the LGBTQ community. 

    “That’s what this is. I would be blind not to call it out,” the judge said. “My duty is to call it out.” …………..

    In one of Trump’s first acts back in the White House, he pardoned nearly all Jan. 6, 2021, defendants accused of storming the Capitol after he lost his 2020 bid for the presidency to former President Biden.  

    U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth, a Reagan judge who took the bench in 1987, wrote days later that in his 37 years of judgeship, he could not recall a time when “such meritless justifications of criminal activity have gone mainstream.”  

    “I have been shocked to watch some public figures try to rewrite history, claiming rioters behaved ‘in an orderly fashion’ like ordinary tourists, or martyrizing convicted January 6 defendants as ‘political prisoners’ or even, incredibly, ‘hostages,’” the judge wrote. “That is all preposterous.” 

    The trend has continued as Trump has pushed the bounds of presidential authority. 

    U.S. District Judge John Coughenour, who took the bench in 1981, wrote in a February decision striking down Trump’s birthright citizenship executive order that, to Trump, “the rule of law is but an impediment to his policy goals.” 

    When an appeals panel in April urged the Trump administration to more diligently seek the return of then-mistakenly deported man Kilmar Abrego Garcia, U.S. Circuit Judge Harvie Wilkinson III penned the order, contending the government’s “shocking” conduct asserted a right to “stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order.” 

    And Young, again, excoriated the administration in September with a blistering rebuke of Trump’s crackdown on pro-Palestinian campus activists. In the ruling, he quoted a portion of Reagan’s inauguration speech which noted “freedom is a fragile thing and it’s never more than one generation away from extinction,” but posited that Trump may have drawn a “darker, more cynical” meaning from the message.   

    “I fear President Trump believes the American people are so divided that today they will not stand up, fight for, and defend our most precious constitutional values so long as they are lulled into thinking their own personal interests are not affected,” Young wrote. “Is he correct?”  



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Trump seems to like pardoning criminals, wonder how much this guy paid him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    One of the things to consider with all these pardons, is how much of a two-fingers it gives to the FBI, US Attorneys and other police forces and state agencies involved in pursuing the convictions.

    But, this is who the party of Law & Order are now. And these organisations themselves, certainly many within them, have been only two happy to bend the knee to Trump so there aren't going to be too many who feel bad for them.

    Still, it's another dark stain on the office of the President.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The Wall Street Journal reported yesterday that Trump's strategy for ending the war in Ukraine is largely driven by potential economic opportunity and is a strategy actually proposed even by Russia.

    The WSJ explains that the plan outlined by Dmitriev would allow US companies to tap into the Russian central bank's approximately $300 billion in assets frozen in Europe for Russian-American investment projects and for the post-war reconstruction of Ukraine. In addition, US and Russian companies could join forces to exploit the mineral wealth of the Arctic, Dmitriev argued.

    The Kremlin's goal would therefore be to convince the US to view Russia as a land of abundant opportunities, not as a military threat, according to Western security officials quoted by the WSJ. By proposing multi-billion dollar deals in the rare earths and energy sectors, Moscow could redraw Europe's economic map while creating a rift between America and its traditional allies, writes the Wall Street Journal.

    Dmitriev, a former Goldman Sachs employee, found receptive partners in Witkoff, Trump's longtime golfing companion, and Jared Kushner, the American president's son-in-law, whose investment fund Affinity Partners has attracted billion-dollar investments from Arab monarchies.

    The businessmen share President Trump's geopolitical approach. While generations of diplomats have viewed the post-Soviet challenges of Eastern Europe as a difficult knot to untangle, the president envisions an easy solution: borders matter less than business.

    If the last 5 words posted above actually are reflective of the Presidents philosophy, it's another example in which his base should have an issue with his policy, if they were true to their own words.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,717 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The link was provided by Igotadose a few pages ago in this thread, I was as unaware of it as you presumably were.

    I have always thought that a policy of default sinking instead of capturing should cease, though out of policy concerns, not legal ones.

    For the criminality at the time, yes. But for the last two months two have happened as it did, all three must be true, a less likely set of circumstances than just the first part being true, but all of which rely upon the base presumption of blatant criminality.

    You will note I used precisely the same verbiage in my previous post when describing the congressional briefing. It's possible that they knew something we don't about the entire situation.

    Post edited by Manic Moran on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Have concluded over the last year that the mass of his base, and maybe even most of the Republican party itself care little about US foreign policy. Certainly not policy in Europe, and towards Russia/Ukraine etc.

    One thing I am trying to wrap my head around is aspects of the original leaked US-Russia "peace plan" would need the EU + the UK as well as Ukraine itself of course to damage themselves badly, sign over large amounts of wealth in form of frozen Russian assets to the US (and Russia), and lock themselves out of post war reconstruction in Ukraine for almost nothing in return. The US (or Trump admin., and friends) seems to do very little, and acts as a kind of supermodel broker receiving a giant cut for getting out of bed in the morning.

    Much of it looked like kind of thing you force on vanquished enemies in a war that are forced to surrender, or complete vassal states. I mean the European countries that want to support Ukraine (and seemingly reject the original plan) are for sure weaker than the US and rely on it for security, but it is not 1945 or even 1980 any more either. IMO they don't have to just swallow everything they are dictated from Washington (and Moscow!). Maybe Trump admin. is in a time warp?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    There's no such thing as "criminality at the time". If it was criminal 2 months ago it's criminal now.

    Part 2 and 3 are about being caught not being criminal.

    It's quiet clear the US have once again committed war crimes and equally clear you're desperate attempts to defend them are nothing but lies and waffle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,079 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Someday, everyone will have always been against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭blackcard


    It must be great to be a Republican. Anything that puts them in a poor light is dismissed as fake news. Any decision that goes against them is taken by activist judges. Thus, it can be ignored.

    And of course, anything bad is Biden's fault



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    And the people you kill "may or may not" have been innocent and their murder "may or may not" have been the unlawful type of murder.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,921 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Somehow Marjorie Taylor Greene is the most respected Republican in 2025.

    That says so much about the state of them.



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