Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

That's not thinking at all actually. You're deferring any thinking to Andy Farrell. That's different to thinking.

The royal "we"? I've given examples earlier, but you might have to do some reading.

No there really isn't even anyone close. Rassie was playing the meta before Andy even knew the rules had changed.

Michael Milne is an awful scrummager. It's why he was leapfrogged by Boyle at Leinster last season and why he could never break into the Leinster or Ireland set up with regularity, despite being at the perfect age point for it.

He's significantly worse than Porter in that regard and not someone I ever want to see start a serious test game for Ireland.

Doing what? Your initial post was about squad sizes. South Africa's autumn squad was 36 players, ours was 34 players.

I believe that Milne was injured when Boyle got a call. I also believe Lee Baron was injured when Gus got a call. But I'm no expert on Leinster props.

Yeah, my problems with Milne clearly only started once he signed for Munster in, checks notes, May 2024. This wasn't a provincial pissing match. Why are you trying to spin it that way?

You can check previous Leinster threads for discussion on Milne and how he could be developed into a better all round player. For years we've been talking about his weakness in the scrum and it still hasn't been resolved. The search function here isn't great, but dig far back enough and you'll see a lot of criticism of his poor scrummaging.

Here's one here discussing Milne's move to Munster.

I'd have Bishti and Niall Smyth as far better prospects than Mullan currently, Bishti more that likely too young, Niall Smyth is a bit of a freak so its certainly possible but he needs to prove he can remain injury free for long enough to get Leinster minutes.

There are no detailed match recaps to be found, from the cursory look I had.

Those posts though were posted literally in the middle of the game in question, and no one challenged the view put forward either.

Once again here - the OP posted up about how Loughman has done "really well" against Wilco Louw, as some sort of argument that he should be selected to start at LHP for Ireland, and he (and you fwiw) have refused to engage repeatedly with the fact that Andrew Porter won multiple penalties off Wilco Louw as recently as June.

Ireland were beaten up all over the field against South Africa. The scrums did not go well and porter is getting the full blame but porter was not doing anything on purpose.
James Ryan with his 20 minute red card, Crowley and prendergast with their yellows, that’s 40 minutes down men from real brain dead decisions.
and given the pressure we were under at scrum there was some shocking silly mistakes that lead to even more scrums.

For me it’s all about the coaches, lineout and scrum are not in good, strength in depth is not really being developed and Farrells decisions do not make sense.
For examples, as a Munster man I am delighted Farrell got game time but with the Irish cap on it makes no sense at his age, Casey did not get enough game time, furlong played too much game time.

I am on record previously saying the coaching ticket is stale and I think it is.
You can argue the players are not there and that’s fine but we have control over the coaches. For me Farrell must make some tough choices now.

I'll remind you of your claim. 

on that day, the Bulls won multiple scrum penalties against Munster

Munster’s scrum gave away at least two penalties early in that game, something covered in match recaps of the game.

I’m asking you to provide the detail from the match recaps that you’re referencing here.

Because my recollection is that Munster went very well at scrum time in that game. The stats, albeit over the full game, seem to bear that out: 

• Munster retained 3 from 3 
• Bulls only retained 6 from 8

Even if they did give away at least 2 scrum penalties, the stats suggest they got more than parity at scrum time. That’s all part of the context. 

But since I asked for that detail, you've reverted to quoting a single post from here and a single post from Munsterfans to back up your point, rather than anything from actual journalists. And even then, with regards this: 

Those posts though were posted literally in the middle of the game in question, and no one challenged the view [that our front row just aren't at the level we need] put forward either.

… literally isn't true. I rarely ever use munsterfans, but someone literally replied with the following: 

Think the front row have been pretty solid. Pack is starting to get out muscled but I wouldn’t single them out.

Here’s a broader point. If I started to back-up my arguments with posts from Munsterfans, how do you think that would be received here?

With regards actual details from match recaps, here’s each mention of the scrum until Loughman went off, from RTE:

• 13 mins: We restart with a Munster scrum in their own 22.
• 14 mins: Lovely exit from the 22 for Munster. A solid scrum locks out, and Murray drops it back to Crowley who finds an excellent touchline, up at half-way. Textbook.
• 23 mins: …so the Bulls will have a 5m scrum. The first two scrums today have been solid, but this is a pressure set-piece...
• 24 mins: Bulls try to milk a penalty out of the scrum, but the referee decides to reset it...
• 26 mins: It was a solid Munster scrum, but the Bulls recycle the ball to go into a series of phases, and Elrigh Louw powers over the line
• 32 mins: Scrum Munster, just inside the Bulls 22.

This suggests that, at a minimum, we were pretty solid. I'm not suggesting Loughman is some scrum titan here, I'm just calling for a bit of factual accuracy.

With regards Porter, you know my thoughts on him. Overall, I think he's a pretty poor scrummager, even if he has some good days at scrum time like the URC final. He's incredibly prone to penalties in general, something you've defended him on in the past e.g. 6 penalties vs Wales being downplayed and "getting it slightly wrong". It's incredibly lenient.

But what are your thoughts on Porter? Cos from your posts here it seems you're defending his scrum performance on Saturday, and pinning the blame on the ref, with Marx getting away with things.

Which I don't think is anything close to what actually happened.

But fwiw, you've refused to respond / acknowledge that a front-row getting subbed at 51 minutes is not indictative that they were "hauled ashore" or played poorly, at scrumtime or otherwise. Are you going to be consistent and suggest Venter and Thomas do Toit were "hauled ashore" on Saturday?

No pissing contest, just addressing the fact the Clegg seems to be opining this at every given opportunity recently as soon as there's any mention of Milne, and I disagree with him on it, it's usually all or nothing with him when it comes to player ability.

He's entitled to his opinion of course. Milne has gone well for us in the scrum to my eye and looks to be a good signing… I'm not sure a few penalties called against him by his more experienced international colleagues is enough to convince me yet of "awful" scrummaging (plus I felt at the time a couple of them were marginal calls).