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Waterford - Limerick

  • 23-09-2024 04:10AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭


    Not sure if a thread already exists for this line (if so I’m really sorry Mods and could you please move this post to that thread…?) but I thought seeing as how the Limerick - Galway line and Nenagh line have one, no harm in having a Waterford - Limerick one!

    I’m just thinking out loud about what can potentially be done to increase line capacity and usage. Ideally services would be extended to Limerick Colbert rather than just the junction and a service would leave both Waterford and Limerick with a pre-09:00 arrival at each end and a similar post-17:30 departure in the evening. This, in my opinion, should be the bare minimum standard timetable template for all lines in Ireland, branch and intercity included. However how achievable is this on the W&L?

    I did a mock timetable and it seems that merely with the addition of a passing loop and second platform at Cahir (or even just a loop outside of Cahir if it came to it), the following can be achieved:

    A train would leave both Waterford and Limerick Colbert respectively at around 06:00 and the two trains can pass each other in Cahir. The trains would provide the following connections at Limerick Junction:

    • Passengers from Waterford for Cork would join 07:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Jnct at 08:32)
    • Passengers from Tipperary, Clonmel (etc) for Dublin would join the 07:00 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 08:01).  
    • Passengers from Limerick for Cork would join the 06:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 07:26) or would simply get the 06:55 Limerick - Limerick Jnct for a better connection time. 
    • Passengers from Cork for Limerick would join from the 07:00 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 08:01).

    These trains will arrive into the two cities respectively at around 8:30 each morning, before the beginning of the working day.

    IMG_1011.jpeg

    In the evening, the story is much the same with trains leaving both cities at around 18:00 and once again passing one another at Cahir. Each train would again, provide the following connections at Limerick Jnct:

    • Passengers from Cork for Waterford would join the Waterford train from the 17:25 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:23)
    • Passengers from Dublin for Tipperary, Clonmel (etc) would join the Waterford train from the 17:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:27).  
    • Passengers from Cork for Limerick would join the Limerick train from the 18:25 Cork to Dublin (which calls at Limerick Junction at 19:26)
    • Passengers from Limerick to Cork would join the 17:00 Dublin to Cork (which calls at Limerick Junction at 18:27). 

    Both services would then reach Limerick and Waterford at around 20:20 or so each evening.

    IMG_1012.jpeg

    This plan is also only taking the current line speeds and station stop timings into account, with a line speed upgrade and removal of manual level crossings, much greater speeds could be achieved. It also only shows the critical morning and evening peak services however ideally there would be more middle-of-the-day service (same as for the Nenagh branch) but they would follow essentially the same timings, with a Limerick Junction connection not being as necessary.

    The Waterford - Limerick Jnct Line is one of my own local lines and is very close to my heart and I really think it is (as all of IÉs branch lines unfortunately are) a much much underutilised and misused asset! Because of that I just said I’d post up this plan in case anyone is interested or has any pointers or (constructive!) criticism… Let me know what you all think! :))



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    I would also add that a service of some sort on a Sunday is critical. Even the Ballybrophy line has one return service.

    One can't head home for the weekend by rail as there is no return service on a Sunday. Crazy stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cml387


    Does it not have a better prospect as a freight line?

    Thirty years ago Bell Lines used the line regularly, but after their failure nothing replaced it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I’d say once Athenry - Claremorris is opened, they’ll bring the freight from Ballina to Waterford via Claremorris, Athenry, Limerick (reversal in the Roxborough sidings) Limerick Jnct and out to Waterford there because with hourly services coming in on the Galway and Waterford lines it’ll be increasingly hard to find paths for slower moving freight trains



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cml387


    Somewhere on these pages I thought I read of a loading gauge restriction on Waterford Limerick?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭OisinCooke


    There very well could be for certain locos/wagons but I know that whenever the Timber wagons are being taken for regular maintenance, an 071 takes them 3 at a time from Waterford to the wagon works in Limerick via the Limerick Jnct Line - empty mind you… not sure if that makes a difference, but that’s one potential flow that could be transferred and obviously containers used to run rampant on the line back in the 80s and 90s so surely thy could also go that way…?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    the different with the 80s is that containers were likely smaller then, rather than the 9’6 stuff that came along more recently.

    Finding a funding source to automate the signalling and level crossings between Tipperary (fringe to Limerick Junction CTC) and Waterford West would seem to be the critical factor given the impact that has on staffing costs. The absence of Sunday services means no college traffic in either direction (not to mention GAA travel). The other problem is the layout of the Junction, specifically the crossover of the mainline, which makes Waterford line traffic low priority in order to ensure on time passage of Cork Dublin traffic. The direct curve suggested in AISRR would help there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭Bodan


    There are plans to grow the passenger service on this line, Jim Meade said they plan to have a 2 hourly service in the near future to grow patronage. There was no mention about upgrading the line, expect in the AIRR report.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Technically no upgrades would be needed to allow for a 2hr frequency on the line. It takes a little less than an hour to reach Clonmel from either Limerick Jnc or Waterford meaning that it can be done with the current infrastructure. However it would leave very little room for error.

    While he didn't mention any infrastructure upgrades, it's possible that any planned infrastructure upgrades may not be very complicated or expensive, or they may not be directly related to planned upgrades to the Waterford-Limerick Jnc line specifically. So he might have thought to mention them at the time.

    For example both Carrick-on-Suir and Cahir I believe both have disused second platforms, and it may be possible to reinstate them with minimal funding and/or without an RO. There are also a number of LCs with speed restrictions on the line they could be looking to close/upgrade as a part of the more general improvements to safety across the network. Their closure could remove some speed restrictions on the line, coincidentally also allowing for reliable 2hr frequency on the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭KanyeSouthEast




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭Bodan


    He mentioned it last year in an oireachtas committee.

    https://www.instagram.com/seontrack/reel/C2vHSttqILx/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭Bodan


    I did the math a few years ago and worked out that the train averages 30 mph, taking 1 hour and 45 minutes to travel from Limerick Junction to Waterford. If they could increase the speed to 45–50 mph, it would significantly reduce the journey time and make the train a much more attractive alternative to driving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    I completely agree, however there may be some significant infrastructure upgrades required as the line's maximum speed is currently restricted to 80kmh/50mph. What I listed is in theory what would be simple, quick, and cheap.

    I am not sure exactly why the line is limited to 80kmh, but I think it could be some combination of track-quality and the manual block signalling system. The number and quality of LCs(26 last I checked) likely also contributes to the slow line speed, however Westport-Athlone and Tralee-Mallow both also have a very large number of LCs and don't have the same speed restriction. So unless the LCs on this line are just much worse quality, I don't think that can be the only reason.

    With proper upgrades to the line, such as increasing the line speed to at minimum 120kmh, LC closures, and creating a better connection to LJ (maybe a new platform or a direct alignment/curve into the station) a 1-hour time could be possible. That would mean an average speed of 80kmh/50mph.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cml387


    Very tall masts have been installed in Clonmel and Cahir stations. Some kind of signalling upgrade?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Likely to do with the roll out of GSM-R train radio system



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    if so that would be a change from the rollout plan submitted to the EU which basically said “we’re in no hurry to do that line”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Currently is no train radio on that route, Only limited coverage near controlling signal cabins

    Existing UIC radios are being replaced so GSM-R has to be installed to maintain/improve status quo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭dowlingm




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    If you remove the UIC radio from the train it can't communicate with the signal cabins anymore so you need at least the level of current service



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I get what you’re saying but then the document doesn’t make much sense unless they actually will retain existing radios as well, at least on some equipment, or they have some other arrangement in mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cml387


    If it is being implemented, that's a good sign for the continued or maybe increased use of the line.

    Isn't it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,004 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    well you would think but then again who knows?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,395 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    one always has to be suspicious of bean counters assigning costs to lightly used lines…

    but I hope this is a good sign, yes. I would argue that the Tipperary-Carrick on Suir section might have been a good place to test out ECTS - as I recall the first UK test was on a Welsh line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    GSM-R is funded through the multi annual infrastructure contract, no funding for ETCS beyond Cork/Dublin projects



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Isn't IÉ actively tendering for a nationwide rollout of ETCS outside of D+ and CACR? Now that isn't a full rollout, Waterford-Limerick and the Nenagh line aren't included as they would be projects of their own, but surely the project is funded if its out for tender?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,041 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GSM-R and axsel counters, they must be a cost saving plan or something else driving it.

    I don't beleive they needed to do it but does allow them centralise control locally?

    There was bridge works over the summer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    EU regulations for TSI compliance

    Axle counters have a number of operational benefits



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Speed or potential frequency increases…? 🤞



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    With our current setup there are multiple issues around track circuits

    Move to axle counters and ETCS we can have magnetic track brakes, apply sand on front axles, remove need for TCA's, eliminate signalling issues around some on track equipment.

    Doesn't help with speed or frequency



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭OisinCooke


    The new Rail Project Prioritisation Strategy has been announced and the Waterford Limerick line does pretty well out of it.

    A new platform is to be built at Limerick Junction (presumably at the top of platform 4, just before the flat crossing) which will save 10 minutes off of journeys apparently, and a new passing loop is being proposed for the line, somewhere “east of Clonmel” apparently.

    I’m not sure if I fully with it being east of Clonmel though. Clonmel has a loop which is up to modern standards (used only a month or so ago I believe), but could do with a lift and a resurface of platform 2.

    To be fair, it is half way along the branch and given Tipperary also has a loop (although no second platform and I don’t think it’s been used in a while) so I can understand that maybe they want to evenly space the loops along the line, but if that’s the case, why not reinstate Carrick on Suir which would be more beneficial, rather than “a location east of Clonmel,” which suggests somewhere without a station.

    The ideal location for a loop on this line is Cahir as timetabling wise, it is exactly half way between Limerick Colbert and Waterford and would allow services to pass each other to connect the two cities with pre-9am arrivals at each. A loop here would be another great asset to the line. They could get rid of Tipperary’s loop to even out the expense of track maintenance as the distance between Cahir and Limerick Junction is only around 20 kilometres, which is a good distance of single track while still supporting frequent services.

    Now of course, it’s likely that east of Clonmel means Carrick on Suir, as they were quite vague with other loop reinstatement locations so are maybe examining multiple options to be safe, but it’s just weird that they wouldn’t confirm it…

    Just my thoughts anyway, but overall, this seems to be good for the line, with capacity and frequency enhancements, and time savings by the looks of it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,417 ✭✭✭cml387


    Yes, good news. I do think that it has more of a future as a freight line, as it was in the past.



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