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Solar for Beginners [ask your questions here]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    Would it be worth the hassle / extra cost to get a higher output inverter just for that scenario? I suppose that without the shower running, I should be able to power the whole house on the above inverter, with an yearly electricity consumption of around 5000 kWh.

    Also, would the higher output inverter be allowed to be installed on a residential system, as I was told that the max allowable output to the network is 5kW?

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    To get a higher one, you need an NC7. And that has a cost of €1500 alone.

    To run a shower in an power outage situation isn't really feasible. And then you need a battery big enough to run it too.

    Is your house all electric showers or is there any traditional ones from a hot water tank, or why the need to run it on the rare occasion of a grid outage

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    Thanks for that.

    No real need to run the electrical shower in case of a power outage, it was more of a query if the outage would last for several days. There are two electrical showers in the house with only the bathtub using hot water from the hot water tank.

    Your comment answers my query, in that is not feasible to get the higher output inverter just for the off chance of a longer power outage.

    If the house can run off the 5kwh output inverter, I'm more than happy with that, even with the showers being a no-go during the power outages.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,193 ✭✭✭deezell


    You're only allowed to push 25a to the grid, which nominally is 6kw if the inverter pushes the voltage up to 240v to push current against the grid voltage, though it's little more complicated than that. Any inverter or combination of inverters with an output current greater than this would need to be in off grid mode, as in wired for backup. Some inverters have built in off grid switching, some have split output whereby they give 5kw to the grid and simultaneously say 2kw to an off grid circuit, which could for example be lights, fridges, electronic appliances and so on.

    To achieve 10kw for a shower plus all the other demands that might occur simultaneously such as fridge, lights, tvs, would require either a 10+kw inverter that can be choked to 5kw when in on grid mode, and I've not researched the feasibility of this, or else paired inverters, the type that can connect together to increase capacity, like the model you listed. Only one would be on grid, the other wired to either essential circuits, or idle. In backup mode both would be tied to each other and connected to the home off grid. Both could have batteries, one with solar also to combine power sources. Some of these models can also take in non synchronised generator input, and feed that into their solar/battery output. You also can consider the very costly NC7 connection which allows you to exceeds domestic limit of micro generation.

    Such a system would require expert design, and there might be single inverter solutions to your quest. It might cost an awful lot more just to have the odd electric shower during the odd power cut.

    If you have oil/gas HW, perhaps plumb in a normal shower mixer valve. I dumped my ensuite electric shower a decade ago, feeble flow, and useless when incoming cold water temperature was in single figures. I installed hot and cold lines from the hotpress straight to a normal mixer, via a pressure boost pump in the press. A DIY job for me, not everyone's idea of fun, but we now have high flow hot showers, and with only 0.25 kw pump consumption from the backup generator during a cut.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,193 ✭✭✭deezell


    Having looked a bit longer at the spec, Ive noticed that this is an Off Grid inverter you've chosen. Unless I'm mistaken, it requires your entire home to be off grid, powered by the inverter, with the grid mains as a feed through source of power in addition to batteries and panels. In this mode the inverter is like a UPS, kept going by battery, mains and solar. It can only draw 6kw max through this port though, so in off grid mode using mains you would need a larger output inverter to feed even an 8kw shower, with mains providing up to a max of 5.75kw, and the rest coming from the charged battery and panels when the grid is live. Have a really goid chat with your installers, I'd need to read a good bit more of the manual to see if I'm correct in my assumptions, but it definitely says 'Off Grid' on the sheet.

    https://www.solisinverters.com/dataFile/2c9fafbf8e733809018eb766ddea15af

    Post edited by graememk at


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    That's valuable info there, I'll just have to make sure the electric showers are not on during any powercuts, that's all. I'll also look into installing a normal shower mixer valve at least for one of the electric showers as the hot press is right behind the shower.

    For the inverter, I requested an upgrade to a newer S6 model (as I thought the newer, the better - maybe I was wrong on this), the installer came up with this model. I did notice and had asked him about the inverter being an off-grid one, but he said that this model would act just like a hybrid one in all aspects. I'll ask him again about it, or even better look at changing it with a more suitable model (like S6-EA1P(3.6-6)K-L).

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭oleras


    On the shower being run on batteries, have my install since May and have managed to only use a handful, <5 daytime units. During the summer the bathroom with pumped shower was being renovated so i was forced to use the electric shower…it was the summer so i was able to use it on setting one rather than two because the storage tank water temp would have been decent, compared to middle of winter when at that lower stetting it would only trickle out…. so basically yes, you can run an electric shower on a lower setting that will only pull maybe 4kw…. make sure the power cut is during the summer basically…😉

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,193 ✭✭✭deezell


    The off grid wouldn't support Feed in Tariff for a start, no payment for excess solar. I think there's an approval list for on grid inverters to meet the export limit. 25a input is the max, the actual power you shove in depends on the voltage at the feed in point. The actual 6kw rated inverters exceed this current, 5kw well in spec. A 5.5kw inverter is probably on the very edge. It matters not with self consumption, it's when the inverter is at full tilt and you're using nothing that you might exceed feed in current. Perhaps because you asked for back up power, the installer advised the off grid layout, but the problem with this is the inverter is in the path of all mains in, like a UPS, and if it fails, no leccie. With on grid inverter, you'll need wiring changeover relays/ switches to automatically or manually switch an on grid to an off grid inverter. That has a stiff cost burden as many installers seem shy of it.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭cuculainn


    How do people manage running heat pumps from battery/panels if domestic inverters output is limited to 5Kw?

    I think our heat pump is 11 Kw.

    Thanks

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Heatpump output is 11kW more likely, it's input is likely 3ish

    Post edited by graememk at


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,193 ✭✭✭deezell


    They dont. The average semi with space for 5 or 6 panels will do well to get 1.5 to 3kwh/DAY of energy in winter even if the panels are south facing and the sky is clear. In cold weather you would need about 4kwh every HOUR to extract 11kwh/hour of energy from a heatpump, (COP close to 3) IF you're not overdriving it in which case your cop could fall below 2 and you’ll need over 5kwh/ hour.

    Your average daily winter solar output will at best offset your heatpump consumption for an hours worth of heat. After that its ca-ching on the old ESB meter. If the sunlight hitting your walls and going through your windows (on only one side remember), won't warm your house in winter, (we know it won't from hundreds of years experience), then its naive to expect the bit landing on your roof for a few midday hours to warm your house all night. This is a green fantasy, only recently broadcast on Nationwide by some idealist eco spokeswoman. The figures dont add up. A steet of solar panels might heat one house, for half of a day.

    A 10 kwh solar battery filled overnight at the cheapest ESB rate and used to run the heatpump for a few hours around sunrise will reduce costs, but you must factor in the battery cost over time, plus that cheap night fill comes at the high cost of eye-watering day and peak rates.

    Insulation is key, you must endeavour to get your home near passive standards. 100mm External or internal wall board, a foot of Insulation in the attic, triple glazed or thermal double glazed, and heat exchanger ventilation, with minimum internal air circulation, (self closing doors) and really smart thermostatic control of your room radiators on a need to heat basis. Only then will a heatpump, working close to it's COP peak curve, i.e, not forced, have any chance of consistenly and economically warming your home with electricity. All the measures above will will also drastically reduce gas or oil heating consumption, but thats heresy to the eco warriors. Hence we have an effective tax rate of 41% on our heating oil.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Easy now on the exaggeration. This is a place for quotes...

    And I've often countered you on all them points. Elements of truth but quite exaggerated.

    Will pull this (and related posts) into the solar for beginners thread.



  • Administrators Posts: 472 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭System


    This discussion was created from comments split from: Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2024 - No PM requests - See Mod note post #1.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,621 ✭✭✭✭con747


    Thank god.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    Definitely I need to go back and ask more questions before the installation day.

    I did ask specifically whether the quoted S6 inverter will allow export, and this was the answer:

    "The inverter would be 5kw Solis Hybrid S6, 100% possible to export."

    Could be that because the S6 inverters are new on the Irish market, he just mixed up the inverters as clearly the one in the quote is an off-grid inverter.

    I posted in the Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2024 thread FYI the quote I received as I didn't want to post it here and break the rules.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    the only S6 hybrid inverters are listed 8kW and 10kW ones. But i have seen smaller ones listed on other countries websites.

    Whatever inverter you do get will be connected in a normal fashion, Grid tied and will be able to export.

    Although running off grid, did they mention changeover switch etc?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    Yes, manual changeover switch - SCO4P80.

    So with the changeover switch, will the off-grid inverter be able to export to the grid as the installer stated?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    If it is that inverter, It can be grid tied as normal and export. The changeover will allow you to run the house off the inverter alone in a power outage. But all solis hybrid inverters can do it. Its not just that one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 688 ✭✭✭m4r10


    Perfect, thanks for the confirmation. Will double check beforehand with the installer.



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