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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    Post edited by Lost Ormond on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    The funniest part here is, it's whataboutery in response to their own claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I wonder if they're looking at the age profile of the second row and thinking of moving him back in there in the medium term or just want him to have a bit more bulk to cover it as required? Seems a lot of weight for a player whose explosiveness is probably his best trait. Can't say I noticed him looking particularly bigger. Same issue with Izuchukwu and Ahern-do they see them as 6s or second rows? Having the 3 of them competing for one jersey seems to be overkill when we may be looking a bit thin at second row in a few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Very hard to know. They seem intent on selecting him at 6 where possible, but I still feel it's a position where Leinster are a little light right now (pending someone like COT or Spicer actually breaking through, if that happens).

    I like him in the mould of that big rangy blindside, and definitely adds some power into the pack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Guaranteed injury on the horizon.

    Yep, he is the closest thing Ireland have to a PSdT (The best forward in World Rugby) who is approx 115kg and a fraction taller.

    Baird at 120kg is 5kg too heavy. Without reading the article I'm willing to say - Nienaber had input.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,997 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I can understand coaches not being very willing to bring in players who are constantly injured.

    It just creates disruption in the squad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Did not realise Baird had bulked up so much. It's an interesting one. He had a fine game last week at blindside but I wonder is this bulking being done to make him the long term replacement to Tadhg Beirne? Beirne is unlikely to make it beyond the next WC. Maybe Baird has been identified as the front runner to replace him at lock?

    As for Tom Aherne, I've been critical of us at Munster selecting him so often at 6. A position that we have loads of options for. He should be put on the Ryan Baird diet and turned into an out and out lock. The man is nearly 6' 10'. He's made to be a lock. The future at Munster is for him and Edogbo to pair up in the 2nd row. And that could translate over to Ireland if all went well. We're wasting our time playing him at 6 because sooner or later we're going to have Gleeson and Coombes in the same back row. One at 8 and the other at 6.

    Personally I think the same applies to Izuchuwku. He should be partnering Henderson in the 2nd row at Ulster and McNabney playing 6.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,997 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Baird has pretty much moved to 6 and I don't think there's any doubt that he's our best at the position now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,919 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    The problem at Munster is the only durable player you mentioned is Coombes. All 3 of Gleeson, Edogbo and Ahern have gotten injured within a month of being called up for Ireland. Which is fairly typical for Ahern and Edogbo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    You bulk Baird up to 120kg and you are effectively going to turn him into Henderson over time.

    100% agree on Ahern and at 6' 9" he is the player that should be identified by Ireland and Munster to play at lock with Beirne (& Edogbo).

    edit: and agree Izuchukwu with Henderson



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    The Ahern stuff is actually ridiculous at this stage - he could be sitting there on 8-10 caps at this stage potentially. He was called into squads on multiple occasions only to have to withdraw or miss out on selection through injury. It must be beyond frustrating for him.

    He's so physically talented, but still feel we haven't got to see the best of him at all.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,403 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    if Baird is actually playing back row at 120kgs that would put him in a very, very small category of 120kg+ back rows. Guillard in france, Weisse in SA, Cunningham-south in England and Tom Hooper in Aussie are the only ones that come to mind.

    Hes only 26 so if hes able to carry that extra lumber without any noticeable reduction in performance he could become a very special player for us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Agree with you there, at this present time and until RWC 2027 he most likely is the best option at 6. But perhaps after that unless other 2nd rows come through he may switch?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Head injuries to both have ruled them out of this series, not the type of injury normally associated with durability.

    The Gleeson thing too was a freak impact incident in the Leinster game.

    Not sure any of this points to a lack of durability in any of the players mentioned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    It's a big if alright, I'm not sure he needed that extra bulk. Unless he's being moved to lock.

    Both Ferris and O'Brien spring to mind as players whose bulk probably contributed to their careers being injury interrupted.

    But maybe Baird has the genetics to manage the size. Time will tell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I think the style of play from Ferris & O'Brien was at least as much a feature of their injury history as their size. Would probably put David Wallace in that category too.

    If you carry and hit as aggressively all the time as those three did, you're going to pick up a lot of injuries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    True, but why bulk up unless that was an element that you were going to bring into your game? No point being 120kg if you're not going to batter other lads with it.

    It could be too that Andy Farrell and/or Leinster want to have 2 backrow replacements on the bench without having to go for the 6-2 split? Baird becomes the man to move into lock then later in the game. That seems to be a plausible explanation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Stockdale is a confidence player and his head was seriously not right for a few years there. I do think he's matured and seems to be a leader amongst the Ulster team.

    The other thing Farrell said is that Stockdale was concentrating on his point of difference. Rather ominously for the Irish attack, Andy identified that as "beating defenders and scoring tries"...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    Stockdale is a confidence player but he also tends to have one big mistake in him per game which isn’t great for a confidence player. Hope he goes well (he should do-it’s Japan) but can’t help but think he isn’t the long term answer. I suspect Hansen will go into the World Cup as our 11 with someone else in the 14 jersey but would love to see Stockdale fulfilling his potential and giving us that edge in attack that he had when in 2017/18.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I don't buy the "one big mistake every game" line. It seems to me to be a vague, undisprovable criticism. I don't know that he makes more than anyone else - I do think his mistakes are seized on and dissected. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Confirmation bias.

    The player he's replacing turned the ball over four times last game, kicked a ball long over the dead ball line and let McKenzie (I think?) waltz past him untouched on the way to one of their tries. I don't remember any posts about his error count, and what they cost the team.

    To be clear, Stockdale isn't the second coming, but "makes one big mistake a game" just seems facile and woolly enough that I don't really pay any attention to it. Especially given we are far from the ultra-processed Schmidt team of yore, when mistakes were unfathomable.

    If someone could actually show me a convincing breakdown or analysis of his mistakes vs other players' mistakes, I might listen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    And I don't want to start a Lowe vs Stockdale thing - I just think it's weird in a sport where we have so much access to all sorts of info and stats that people are happy rolling out such an "anecdotal" criticism as "always makes a big mistake".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I appreciate you'll have seen a lot more of him over the recent years than myself, but I have seen him play plenty and have concentration lapses throughout his whole career. Maybe they stick out more as they're often of his own making rather than great play by the oppostion exposing him. Maybe its front and centre in my mind as he dropped a pretty simple kick off receipt against the Bulls recently which led to them scoring. It was a brainfart, but he's had quite a few over the years and I don't think he ever managed to eradicate them from his game. You can get away with those in the URC but not in tight matches at international level unless you're contributing a lot on the other side of the ledger like he did in 2017/18 to compensate. It's not fair to expect zero mistakes from any player during a game, but unforced errors like that kill a team.

    I hope you're right and that it is confirmation bias on my part as we could do with some serious cutting edge out wide but it won't make much difference if we can't get quality ball to him which is something we couldn't do for our wingers last week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 oso92


    Saw the team going through the airport back from Chicago. He surprised me the most. He was seriously big, and he's carrying it well. Looking forward to seeing how he uses it this season!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Very reasonable. If he does have an error-strewn performance I'll be raging!

    I would say that he does come in looking for work these days as well (which has obviously been a real decisive strength of Lowe's). Baloucoune is doing more of it but something clicked with Stockdale a couple of seasons ago that it was clearly a prerequisite to be one of Farrell's wingers, and he's now pretty handy at roaming about. So hopefully he won't be waiting about out on his wing for the ball to come his way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I dont think they are 'concentration lapses' or even that its necessarily 'one big mistake in him'. It's just that defending is not in him. He is a finisher.

    Just taking last year v Fiji and his return games v Benetton, Scarlets and Dragons there are multiple examples of bad defense.

    And in his defense - Ulster team last season had a shockingly bad attitude when it came to defending. They were utilising Stockdale allot more through the middle in attack and it really helped his confidence. It was actually these games for Ulster last year that I thought Doak stood up. He was bursting his gut to work and cover defend.

    I dont know what Farrell meant by saying that he thinks "he's had a word with himself", because he was always excellent in attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 243 ✭✭Juventu4


    Hopefully Farrell brings back O'Mahony and Healy for the Autumn internationals, one more outing for the boys, can't be playing the young lads heaven forbid they might make a mistake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭thamus doku


    it’s not that the young and new make mistakes is the fear, the real fear is that they don’t make mistakes and play well.

    The reality is the IRFU cannot afford it, Farrell does not want real competition as it protects him from real debate on who starts and it suits a lot of supporters to have their guys as untouchables in the team.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,286 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    ”A word with hisself” was what he said. I’m not sure Andy’s statements should be examined too closely in these press conferences. Fortunately, he’s much better at the business end on the field than he sounds here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 920 ✭✭✭HanShotFirst


    I was actually going to write that!!!

    I think he’s excellent in how he speaks. Just straight up and no messin.



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