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Northern Ireland 2125?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I have no interest in mindless speculation.
    Especially as you only mention it in defence of our colonisers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Are you like the other poster who has guilt over what white man did in America, Africa, Australia etc?

    The other posters condemn it , but what difference will that make? We are where we are. Yet he will not condemn things like the Enniskillen bombing, carried out by the military wing of the party he follows



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Site Banned Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    We are where we are, you're right.
    Condemnation won't solve anything.

    Except in the case of your man who won't condemn the Enniskillen bombing. This time it's different.

    Are you openly pro-british empire in real life?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Given that the Congo, Indonesia, Ethiopia, etc are now indedent countries in which the indigenous population forms a majority and governs itself I'd say, yes, they were better off not being colonised by the British who displaced, dispossessed and expropriated the people of Australia, seized their land and resources and gave it to settler colonists, destroyed their language and cultuure and left them as a permanently deprived, marginalised and alienated minority in their own country.

    Basically, you think the colonisation of Australia was better because it was more genocide-y. By 'better", you mean it conferred more advantage on the colonists.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Mate, you're the guy who brought up "what white man did in America, Africa, Australia etc", as an example of how wonderful the British are. We're just pointing out that what you say is nonsense, and what you chose to bring up is in truth a counter-example to the point you're trying to argue. That's not "guilt" on our part; just basic common sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I-m not your mate and I never said the British were "wonderful." Sounds like you have white guilt as well about what white man did to the native populations of America, Asia etc. I agree the Belgians done awful things in the Congo relatively recently when the British were treating the people of Singapore with total respect etc. And Singapore is one of the leading countries in Asia today and the British are thought of there with respect.

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Some people living today committed the atrocities like the Enniskillen bombing, Shankhill butchers etc.

    Different times hundreds of years ago.

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Australia, mate, Australia. You brought up Australia, so don't run away now. Tell us again how the British treated the people of Australia when they colonised it, and how much better that worked out for them than the Dutch dealings with the people of Indonesia. And explain once more how people who don't share your views on this are suffering from "white guilt"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I am not your mate. No need to read the rest of your post. Ask the native people's of Singapore , New Zealand , Australia etc if they are better off now than the people of Congo after the Belgians, Ethiopia after the Italians, Indonesia after the Dutch etc.

    The Japanese invaded parts of Asia not that long ago, 1940s etc. How do you think they treated the native populations then?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If you're not going to read posts, don't reply to them. It makes your position look even weaker than if you had not replied at all, which is probably not the look you are reaching for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 716 ✭✭✭myfreespirit


    Your posts in this thread reek of colonialist, imperialist arrogance, claiming that British imperialism was beneficial to the invaded peoples of Asia and Africa.

    A reading of 'An Era of Darkness: The British Empire in India' by Dr. Sashi Tharoor, might help you to a better understanding of the horror and cruelty of British imperialism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    When you repeatedly called me "mate" , even though I told you I was not your mate, and yet you called me mate again, I am well entitled to ignore the rest of your rantings, which have seemed quite racist in the past.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    You must've missed the Soldier F case.

    Oh and The Troubles, Kenya and Iraq



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I said there was good and bad aspects to imperialism. Some countries had a better experience / beneffited more that others, or suffered less, depending on your point of view. eg compare Singapore with the Congo or Ethiopia.

    In India, 2 sides to the story. Same as n. Ireland. A lot of Indian volunteers joined the British Indian Army, 2.5 million. Indian troops made a huge contribution to the war effort, winning 30 Victoria Cross medals for acts of bravery. Would they have done so if they were as anti-British as the author of the book? There are many other Indians who are not anti-British.

    Wonder what the relatives of the 2,500,000 men from India who volunteered and fought in British uniforms for the allied war effort, in ww2 think of the rembererance day bombing in Enniskillen? I think they would have been disgusted by it and by posters here who would not condemn it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 716 ✭✭✭myfreespirit


    This is errant nonsense - the sole purpose of British imperialism in India was exploitation and extracting as much wealth from the Indian people as humanly possible, all the while mismanaging the administration of the country to such an extent as to cause repeated famine up to the early 20th century. Shameful!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Sole purpose? Rubbish. You do not know why all the European countries colonized others. It was for political reasons as well, and ideological reasons of course. eg spread of Christianity.

    It was not just to gain control of resources but to establish new markets for their manufactured goods. Countries competed also for greater national prestige and military strength, by securing strategic locations such as naval bases, to protect trade routes and project power.

    Was always the case. The Greek, Romans, Arabs all colonized. If you Google it you will find we the Irish even colonized part of Scotland.

    Do you suggest de-colonisation and all white man should come back from America, Australia etc? Seems to me like you have white guilt if you are worried about what people did hundreds of years ago, in different times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Hundreds of years ago? The Bengali famine certainly wasn't hundreds of years ago. It was more recent than the WWII victims you're getting your Poppy Fever all heated up over on the other thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    There was an even worse famine in India in 1770, with a death toll of 9 to 10 million , long before the UK seized India.

    In 1943 the Japanese had rapidly conquered much of Asia and were actively invading Burma towards Bengal. Bengal at the time had got most of its rice from Burma but the Japanese had invaded and occupied Burma. Lots of other reasons too eg a Cyclone and crop failure .

    Churchill begged Roosevelt for ships to get food there, but the US did not have any to spare. Food was even rationed in the UK in ww2 it was that scarce. Dark days for the whole world, not just countries at war trying to stop the conflict.

    I remember the famime in Ethiopia in the 1980s. When there was not a world war going on or Japanese subs off the coast of Ethiopia. 1,200,000 people still starved to death then, and that was only 40 years ago. Who do you blame for that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Are we really going with the, 'other bad things happened so British Colonialism was fine' defense?

    Would you apply the same logic to the Enniskillen bombing? 'Only' eleven people were killed that day, thirteen were killed on Bloody Sunday and another died due to injuries four months later. There were over 20 terrorist attacks in Europe with more fatalities than the PIRA's deadliest attack (the Birmingham Bombing), there were 15 with more fatalities than the Omagh Bombing. By your logic, they were all grand because worse happened to other people on another date in another place.

    A pretty repulsive take if you ask me, but that's your reasoning apparently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Not my reasoning. Everyone who dies of starvation is very sad. Does not matter if it was one of the 28,000 British who starved or died in Japanese capitity, or the people in the Bengali famine or the people in Ethiopia in the 1980s.

    60% of those killed during the troubles were killed by Republicans, but they were all some mothers child. All.murder ( except killings in self defence) are wrong.

    You did not answer, who do you blame for the 1.2 million who starved in Ethiopia only 40 years ago? There was no world war going on in the 1980s. Modern communications, no submarines sinking shipping.

    In the 26 years between 1921 and Indian Independence in 1947, the Indian population increased by 89 million. Yes, 89,000,000, despite the famine. Was that the fault of the British for giving them too much food, because you seem to blame the British for everything else?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Honestly, I think you've made enough of a fool of yourself at this point that it isn't really worth engaging further. I genuinely don't believe anyone actually living nowadays actually holds your views and you're just trolling as a caricature of a grossly outdated imperialist Brit from the early 1900s.

    I'll answer your question on the Ethiopian famine of the 1980s, but I expect you to answer a question in exchange. Drought and the Derg were responsible for the famine in Ethiopia.

    What does this do to diminish British responsibility for the Bengali famine? Do you think that just because other famines happened, it means that the Brits are magically in the clear?!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    The Ethiopian famine of 1984 was primarily caused by a combination of drought, civil conflict, and bad government. But does that mean everyone else is in the clear? The world let it happen in front of tv crews, in an era when there was no world war, there were plenty of cargo airplanes and ships etc.

    As noted before, there were numerous causes for the Bengali famine. Officially India was at war with the Japanese who had invaded much of Asia. 14 million Chinese alone were killed by Japanese aggression. The number of British starved by the Japanese was only a fraction of that. The British did not start WW2 in the far east. If the British were as bad as you say in India, 2.5 million would not have volunteered to fight the Japanese in British army uniforms. And the population of India would not have increased by 89 million in only 26 years. It did not decrease, it increased by 89 million. Nobody is saying the British are or were perfect. Far from it. They made plenty of mistakes. But 2 sides to every story. Not black and white like you claim.

    The person in the link below given an honest evaluation on the effect Britain had on his native Singapore. He gives eight positive and six negative aspects of British rule. On balance, he thinks it was 60 per cent good and 40 per cent bad.

    He says compared to the other colonial rules of Southeast Asia, the British were the least bad. In spite of all its faults, the British did leave Singapore with positive legacy. 

    https://lawgazette.com.sg/feature/the-british-rule-of-singapore-an-evaluation/

    He did not say that Singapore is the richest per capita, most successful country in Asia but afaik it is. Long time since I was there and even though I'm Irish, it was obvious the British legacy was well respected. They should know. The British were there until it was captured by the Japanese in 1942. Singaporeans had an brutal time between 1942 and 1945, until they were liberated by the 5th Indian Division and the Japanese surrendered to Mountbatten. I told them not everyone in Ireland agreed with the terrorist murder of Mountbatten and the civilians on his little boat.

    Post edited by itsacoolday on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Honestly, I think you've made enough of a fool of yourself at this point that it isn't really worth engaging further. 

    Correct answer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Why is it when you lose the argument and cannot refute the facts, you make personal attacks?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It seems a curious reason to pick as a justification for no longer attempting to defend or justify your own views. But needs must, I suppose.

    I'll stop calling you "mate", if that helps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    This from the poster who accuses those who don't share his views about colonialism of having "white guilt"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    Everyone is entitled to have their own views on historical matters. However, it is obvious some posters here never examined the facts in an objective manner, or questioned what they were taught to believe. Some have classic feelings of remorse or shame upon recognizing the harm and inequality caused by European colonialism and historical/current racism. They forget all European countries, as indeed some other countries throughout the world, had colonies. They fail to see there were some positive effects of colonisation, it was not always all bad. Having white guilt about how white man colonized America or Australia seems to make some people uncomfortable, and they forget how it was a lot of Irish people who helped colonize those countries too. Even ancient Irish Gaels colonized parts of Scotland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,068 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody has for a second suggested 'it was all bad'.

    You are having to invent 'facts' about the discussion now to try and restore some credibility and talk down to people.

    You are the classic Irish, 'British sycophant' - whatabouting and deflecting to avoid looking at Britain's colonial history squarely in the eye.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,219 ✭✭✭itsacoolday


    I have looked, squarely in the eye as you say, over many decades on my travels, at the effects of colonialism throughout the world. I have yet to hear of any positive effects of colonialism from you, perhaps you would care to list some?



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