Energy infrastructure

gjim · 14-10-2025 10:51AM

Batteries can and do provide a replacement for spinning reserve.

And cold start from batteries is also becoming viable: https://utilitymagazine.com.au/world-looks-to-australia-for-grid-forming-battery-success/

The speed of battery tech advancement is amazing and now is considerably cheaper than alternatives like pumped hydro or open cycle for intra-day balancing.

They are not only cheaper they are superior technically in every way: more versatile, more efficient, can respond in milliseconds, can be placed anywhere regardless of geography, can be distributed economically into smaller units each placed at strategic grid locations, have install time scales of months and produce no emissions nor require vast civil engineering works like anything hydro.

Batteries can simultaneously provide intraday balancing and provide grid stabilization and can even be used as a replacement for transmission upgrades in certain cases.

Prices continue to drop, global production continues to grow exponentially as does installed capacity globally. We’re living through a technological revolution in energy.

celtic_oz · 14-10-2025 06:31PM

International energy agency found that energy companies in Ireland have failed to pass on the drop in wholesale prices and that the margins on electricity in Ireland is one of the largest in the WORLD

Shocker! Irish consumer not getting good value while the Electricity association says "nothing to see here".

Smacks of the regulator for the banks in 2007

paywall article

machiavellianme · 15-10-2025 12:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123904042#Comment_123904042

You're casually glossing over the most important fact of all - batteries aren't generators. They cannot create energy and provide it indefinitely. Plus they degrade the more you use them, especially if you use them in anger to greater discharge levels.

Also, they seem to be at the heart of most of the grids issues these days - subsynchronous oscillations. They can be an important part of the portfolio but they are not the saviour we need any more than any other plant type.

bk · 15-10-2025 10:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123906501#Comment_123906501

You're casually glossing over the most important fact of all - batteries aren't generators. They cannot create energy and provide it indefinitely.

I find this opinion sort of funny, after all neither is Turlough Hill and similar pumped hydro projects in the UK and rest of the world, yet people tend to talk about them very positively and our grids would likely collapse without them.

The fact that aren't generators isn't really a big deal if they are taking excess power at times of excess renewable which would otherwise be curtailed and then return it to grid during times of peak demand, just like pumped hydro does.

Plus they degrade the more you use them, especially if you use them in anger to greater discharge levels.

You can say that about all power generation assets, the more you use a gas turbine, that faster it will wear out and need replacement too.

People tend to not realise it, but all turbines (and other equipment) in both gas plants and Turlough Hill are constantly being maintained, parts replaced, refurbished and eventually completely replaced. It just happens in the background without people realising.

Maintenance of power plants is a major cost. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is usually made up by a combination of capital cost to buy the asset + cost of fuel + cost of maintenance (+ finance, profit and decommission).

If the TCO of batteries ends up cheaper then a Gas peaker plant, then replacement doesn't really matter.

As an aside, newer battery technology like LFP and Sodium have much better recharge performance and lifetime operations. So when you do finally replace your old battery, you are often swapping in a much better one with years of technological improvements.

Also, they seem to be at the heart of most of the grids issues these days - subsynchronous oscillations. They can be an important part of the portfolio but they are not the saviour we need any more than any other plant type.

Not in Ireland. In Ireland we use Synchronous Condensers to handle oscillations, inertia and grid stability. We then have batteries that sit behind the Synchronous Condensers which can supply various grid services even including black start!

It is a really good setup that we have.

machiavellianme · 15-10-2025 06:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123906964#Comment_123906964

We have 1 synchronous condenser. It helps voltage and inertia but it doesn't do much for the subsynchronous interactions we experienced due to the batteries. There's a reason that Eirgrid have limited the battery response recently. They are terrified that they will exacerbate the issues with data centres disconnecting after a fault on the system.

Even when we get the 2nd Synchronous condensor in a few weeks, it won't solve all our problems. As for batteries, ask Eirgrid if they use them for their restoration plans. The answer will be a resounding No.

bk · 15-10-2025 06:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123908405#Comment_123908405

4 Synchronous condensers are currently on order for Ireland!

gjim · 15-10-2025 07:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123906501#Comment_123906501

You're casually glossing over the most important fact of all - batteries aren't generators.

I didn't gloss over anything - I'm assuming a very basic level of intelligence on the part of the people here so don't feel the need to point out glaringly obvious about something irrelevant.

But for your benefit, yes batteries aren't generators, batteries are not transmission systems, batteries don't fly, batteries cannot play football, etc. But despite all these handicaps, batteries happen to be good at grid stabilization, replacing OC gas peakers and are far cheaper than pumped hydro. Which is what we were talking about.

Also, they seem to be at the heart of most of the grids issues these days - subsynchronous oscillations.

You have it exactly backward - the article I linked discusses using grid forming batteries to deal with this and other types of grid instabilities.

This problem is caused by too much inverter based generation on weakly connected grids like you have in remote parts of Australia - wind is the main culprit, not batteries.

And no, subsynchronous oscillation is not "the heart of most of the grids issues these days" - it requires very specific conditions to occur and is actually quite rare.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 15-10-2025 07:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123906501#Comment_123906501

"They cannot create energy and provide it indefinitely. Plus they degrade the more you use them"

Is the law of conservation of energy still in play? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but changed from one form another. Generators don't create energy either and the electricity they create isn't indefinite.

machiavellianme · 15-10-2025 10:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123908675#Comment_123908675

True but as long as you have primary or secondary fuel, you can keep a conventional generator going for a long time, until it is decommitted or it trips. Batteries can't be topped up as they discharge, and are energy limited.

machiavellianme · 15-10-2025 10:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123908622#Comment_123908622

That's not correct, it's not a rare issue at all.

There is a continuous underlying oscillation on the Irish power system at all times these days. Typically between 0.01 and 0.08Hz. It's exacerbated during high renewable output periods but we also have a number of significant events every year due to the influx of inverter based resources like batteries. Most of the recent issues were caused by batteries. You can submit an FoI request to Eirgrid and get this same information.

gjim · 15-10-2025 10:49PM

Plus they degrade the more you use them

Yeah this uniquely an issue with batteries because coal and NG plants don’t degrade at all “the more you use them” and never wear out 🙄

I wonder what all those expensive fitters, welders and engineers called in during the 4 weeks average scheduled down time per year are actually doing 🤔

machiavellianme · 15-10-2025 10:58PM

If they were so great, why is it that most battery owners aren't in the arbitrage space and are instead focusing on the system services payments? Why are they so worried about warranty arrangements and number of discharge cycles?

Sure, thermal plant have a defined number of run hours until they must take an outage for maintenance/repair (as do batteries) but they typically don't need to be replaced in their entirety after a few hundred cycles on and off. They tend to have significant maintenance (the 4 weeks you refer to) at 5 or 10 year intervals. Batteries will need the same, if they last that long.

Furthermore, thermal plant won't have a 10-20% lower maximum export capability after a couple of hundred cycles. That's the point I'm making. Nothing to do with maintenance, as both plant types will need that. For example, DB1 still has the same 410MW capability today as it had 23 years ago when it was commissioned. How many batteries will have the same output after just 5 years as their initial values?

gjim · 15-10-2025 11:55PM

They tend to have significant maintenance (the 4 weeks you refer to) at 5 or 10 year intervals. Batteries will need the same, if they last that long.

You’re not even in the ballpark - coal electricity plants in the US (EIA stats) are on average unavailable for 14% of the year - over 50 days - about a third of which is scheduled downtime (maintenance) and 2/3rds forced (fixing unexpected failures). The equivalent number for a utility battery installation is 2 days a year. Moneypoint used to schedule taking 2 of the 3 units offline every summer for 3 weeks of maintenance.

Yeah a coal plant has a lifespan twice that of a battery installation but that’s achieved by constantly spending money replacing and rebuilding parts of it.

machiavellianme · 16-10-2025 07:19AM

Why are you using coal to highlight your point? They are notoriously poor performers due to the significant numbers of moving parts, particularly in their auxiliary systems such as the mills/grinders. Plus many of them are near end of life, so of course they'll have higher outage rates. But since we don't have any coal, it's a pointless argument!

Especially when I said that all plant types need maintenance, but not all plant types have a reducing maximum output based on how much they are used. Turlough Hill can still export the same amount of power today as it did 50 years ago, despite being cycled daily. Batteries won't be able to do likewise, no matter how much maintenance you do.

bk · 16-10-2025 09:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123909417#Comment_123909417

It isn't just coal! Guess what, Gas Turbines (and frankly all turbines) have LOTS of moving parts and require lots of downtime and ongoing maintenance.

ALL energy generation and grid infrastructure requires maintenance and eventual replacement, that is simply a fact of life for this industry. Batteries and solar have significantly lower maintenance and replacement costs compared to Gas or any fossil fuel generator.

machiavellianme · 16-10-2025 11:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123909690#Comment_123909690

How many times have I said that every type of plant needs maintenance and repair? Practically every single post. Some will require more extensive works than others but they typically last longer. None of the current batteries or solar will last 20+ years, regardless of how much maintenance is done.

BKtje · 16-10-2025 12:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123910043#Comment_123910043

I'm no expert but your position on solar tech not lasting 20 years has me curious as to why you think this.

Modern solar panels last well over 20 years (up to 35+) with about 0.3 % degradation per year or approx 8-10% after 25 years. Inverters will probably need changing after about 15 years.

Current Li-Ion Batteries last 15 years or so (depending on number of cycles) but the modules can be replaced and newer emerging battery tech should be cheaper and/or longer lasting for grid storage. I'm not convinced that LI-ION are really suited in the long term but they have a place at the moment. I'm only casually interested in the field so open to correction.

riddlinrussell · 16-10-2025 12:46PM

It is a little confusing why you'd compare them like that then, let's assume that a gas plant can operate for 30 years before either needing or having had through general maintenance, a full refurbishment.

Let's also say you can get 10 years out of a well maintained BESS or a solar farm.

The base economics of that says that the BESS/solar just needs to cost less than the Gas plant per GWh, when replacement battery/panel costs over that time are factored in, to be viable/equivalent, how quickly it needs replaced is somewhat irrelevant as long as its not ridiculously short lifespans.

In addition at the end of those 30 years, the gas plant will have the same capacity, while the now 3rd/4th set of batteries/panels you are on will have a greater capacity and potentially lifespan as you update with the latest technologies.

fael · 16-10-2025 12:48PM

There is research done on old solar panels from the very early days. For example a small 1kW installation near Lyon was dismantled and tested in a lab. Installed in 1992 it still produced 90% after 20 years and 80% after 31 years.

Keeping in mind since 1992 development and reliability of PV panels has only gotten better, the same goes for inverters.

There is practically no maintenance for PV panels, there is a little bit of work on the inverters sometimes. Easily proven by the fact that solar farms don't have staff on site when they operated.

josip · 16-10-2025 01:06PM

A days worth of biomethane connected to the grid today.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2025/1016/1538846-new-50m-biomethane-plant/

Do these lads have any storage capacity of note at their plant?

Do the gas power stations have any/much in the way of storage or do they burn it straight from the pipe?

bk · 16-10-2025 05:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123910262#Comment_123910262

I haven't read into the details of this plant, but in general AD facilities have storage for both the input biomass and the output produced biomethane, though the goal is typically to pump it into the gas network as soon as possible.

BTW the gas network itself acts as a type of storage, I believe the network contains at least a few days worth of gas.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 16-10-2025 07:37PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NjpO3QFywKo

Nice video on it. I'd say they would not bother with a dedicated gas storage because they don't have a CHP on site.

Although there is so much storage I'm under the membrane roof they wouldn't need to.

tppytoppy · 23-10-2025 01:02PM

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/1925129/very-worrying-concerns-raised-as-plans-for-more-wind-turbines-in-offaly-are-revealed.html

Local Councilors waking up to the fact that the Midlands are being over exploited for wind farms with land monopolised at the expense of other productive uses but planning applications go directly to ABP instead of county planners.

omicron · 23-10-2025 07:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123930656#Comment_123930656

Wind turbines don't prevent the land from having other uses? Total land take is very small for a turbine and access road.

tppytoppy · 23-10-2025 08:29PM

Nothing not belonging to the proposer will be built within 500 meters of the edges of the farm.

timmyntc · 04-11-2025 05:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123931909#Comment_123931909

What else could actually be built in the areas these windfarms typically get installed in?

Busman Paddy Lasty · 04-11-2025 09:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123962214#Comment_123962214

More one-off houses.

tppytoppy · 05-11-2025 08:22AM

Wind farms are constraining the growth of villages in the Midlands, not just one off housing. Farmers have to request planning permission for new infrastructure in their farms which will be objected to by the Moguls who run wing farms.

timmyntc · 05-11-2025 10:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123963773#Comment_123963773

Even if the "moguls" running windfarms objected to everything nearby, that doesnt mean any objections would be upheld.

Other than one off houses too close to windfarms, what developments have actually been blocked due to proximity to windfarm?

riddlinrussell · 05-11-2025 11:27AM

Surely there would be few places where a windfarm would butt up directly onto an actual village/town? And if the result is it stopping them from sprawling and forcing densification of their core if they wanted to grow the village then thats a positive…

Energy infrastructure

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