Israel/Palestine Thread

First of all, we're all educated and mature individuals, we should all be able to discuss the case without resorting to analogies. Make your point using arguments, don't invent unrealistic situations.

The land was taken from them, and now they want it back - call this what you want but not colonialism, because it isn't. They don't want the whole Levant, just the land of Israel and not the whole thing either. And finally, Jews and palestininans are not the same people. It's more than religion that separate them.

And it may come as a surprise to you, but it wasn't called 'The Kingdom of Israel' in antiquity because the Arabs, Muslims, or other ethnic grouping got there first!

The 'Arabs' may not be a monolethic bloc, but Mandatory Palestine certainly was.

Yet, somehow, it never seems to be an issue that the Hashimites now control the largest percentage of that region of land previousl called Mandatory Palestine.

The small percentage of it that is now Israeli does, however, drive certain 'honest broker' sections of the online commenteriat absolutely mental.

I wonder why.

They didn't return home. You can't call it home if you have never been there, neither were your parents, grand parents, great grand parents etc…

We'd find it ridiculous if the US decided that a load of Irish Americans "returned" to Ireland, and decided to give them 50% of the country, despite their ancestors having left 300 years ago. And in the case of Israel, their ancestors left over a thousand years ago. And the people who were living in Palestine were the descendants of the original inhabitants, they just converted to Islam and Christianity.

Israel was formed without any poll of the population that was there at the time. It involved massive ethnic cleansing and it shouldn't have happened.

Having said that, I do think the state of Israel should exist. There are millions of people living there now. I'm not suggesting destroying the state and making all those people refugees. That would be a second Nakba and just as wrong as what happened to the Palestinians in the 40's.

However we have to drop the idea that any people have any right to the land of others because their ancestors possibly lived there over a thousand years ago or because they believe God gave it to them.

The settlements need to be dismantled, most have been made in the last 20-30 years. And israel needs to recognise that they have no right to palestinian land and that the palestinians have a right to self determination.

You really should read up on the flotilla group. Some very unsavory characters, Irish included, on board.

If you believe that people who are been flown out to Lebanon to attend the funeral of Hezbollah Leader Hassan Nasrallah aren't on 'the take' then you're just very niave.

One of them was questioned by the Irish Times about who paid for the trip. It's not some big secret. You just want to pretent that they're all just a bunch of feelgood hippies.

International political leaders need to demand Marwan Barghouti's release from abuse and torture.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/uk-mp-calls-for-marwan-barghouti-s-release-amid-israeli-abus

I believe your original claim was they were all in the pay of Hamas,Hezbollah and Iran. As i pointed out to you previously, i won't defend anyone who made unsavoury remarks such as Israeli women deserved to be raped. It's despicable to dehumanise people like that whether they are Israeli or Palestinian

If it was known he or anyone else had those views then they should have been kicked off. With this in mind, it's why you on this thread have repeatedly called for Smotrich and Ben Givir to be fired for their unsavoury remarked towards Palestinians, as it besmirches the reputation of the Israeli Government and also implies they endorse them.

I don't have time to do an analysis on 400 flotilla participants but i can extrapolate from the information available.

If you're marching with the Gerry Adams and the provos, you are of a certain ilk and persuasion. If you're getting into bed with those on the flotilla, likewise.

There were 16 Irish on board. Here's a sample.

Tara O'Grady attending Nasrallah's funeral.

https://iranpress.com/content/301102/human-rights-activist-tara-ogrady-stands-solidarity-with-lebanon

Another Irish flotilla clown here at Nasrallah's funeral, plus Tiago Avila, one of the main men on the flotilla.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-843498

If people who attend a Hezbollah leaders funeral are part of the steering committer or organising group, can you not just read between the lines.

The flotilla was a motley collection of Pro-Hamas, Pro-Hezbollah, grifters, failed entertainers and wannabe celebrity influencers, attention seekers and good old fashioned antisemites.

I'm sure there's a few decentskins in there too, but they're tarnished by association.

I think it would be entirely reasonable to do some fact checking before boarding a boat on such an enterprise.

Given what I have just shown you in 2 minutes, would you really be comfortable putting your name to such an endavour

I don't think people who describe themselves as mature and educated would make spurios, nonsensical and slanderous claims, as you did when accusing antisemetism on the majority of international aid/humanitarian/legal organisations inside Israel and outside, along with the UN, a few posts back. I'm still waiting for proof?

And of course you don't want me to use analogies, because applying the situation you are talking about to any other people's in the world would be insane.

The land was taken from them, and now they want it back

No, the land wasn't taken from "them". The Roman army conquered land, as it did all over Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle east, and expelled the people ruling there at that time, and they went out into world like everybody else. There were many civilizations there before them, and many since.

This act predates the formation of almost every country in Europe. Will you argue that France isn't a real place because it wasn't there before the Romans? Is Spain and Spanish people a figment of our imagination? Is all the history of those places moot because it happens after an arbitrary point in time that you pulled out of your h*le?

The people now claiming to be natively middle eastern Israelis are mostly European, American, Russian, or from the USA. They just happen to have a religion that originated in the area. Just as Christianity and Islam does. If Judaism was a racial thing, you could have Jewish Muslims and Christians who could claim the area, and that is impossible

So no, I don't agree the "them" the Romans conquered, and the "them" colonizing the land are the same, there is 2000 years of history in between, as there is for us all.

And finally, Jews and palestininans are not the same people.

Yes, I believe I have addressed that above. The Palestinians are the natives. Their religion shouldn't matter, just as us turning atheist doesn't make us less Irish.

And for somebody so gung ho about claiming antisemetism, you are engaging in quite a lot of it yourself.

There are Jewish people all over the world who are British, French, American, Irish, Russian etc, who have absolutely nothing to do with Israel. I knew a few when I lived in the States, they were American as apple pie.

That is why the attack in Manchester was so antisemetic, what does a British person have to do with a wars of countries in the middle east?

But you are telling us that all these Jewish people aren't really British, they aren't really Irish etc, they are defacto Israeli.

The first antisemetism marker in ADL guidelines is "Jewish people are more loyal to Israel than their native countries".

Well you are blowing that out of the water- they aren't even natives in their own countries! Yet again you are throwing the Jews of the world who want to live in peace in their respective countries under the bus to make them complicit in Israel's slaughter.

Notch another 3 hostage deaths up to the most moral army in the world. Of course, they lied about it initially. As usual.

Your question is disingenuous and doesn’t deserve an answer.

So, just a collection of Pro-Hamas, Pro-Hezbollah, Pro-Iranian, grifters, failed entertainers and wannabe celebrity influencers, attention seekers, but definitely no antisemites.

I'm sure the lads who took paid fights, hotel rooms and 'walking around' money from Hezbollah to attend Nasrallah's funeral took a very principled stand when they heard 'Death to Israel' chants at the event.

Sure they did. Aghast they were at such blatent shows of antisemitism. Everyone was just there to pay their respects to a peace loving man who never once said;

"We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains: Death to Israel!"

‘If we search the entire globe for a more cowardly, lowly, weak, and frail individual in his spirit, mind, ideology, and religion, we will never find anyone like the Jew’.

But apparently you'd get on a boat with people who would take money form a terrorist organisation to attend the funeral of a man hold such views.

No, the majority of jews in israel are of middle eastern or north african decent. This is easily available information. You keep saying that they're all European and American but they arent. Have you seen or met many Israeli people? Many are pretty "brown" to put it in terms that people on here like to use.

Nope I have never met an Israeli in my life, it's not really relevant. I fully understand there are people completely ethnic to the area who are Jewish, and those who are Christian. Most are Muslim.

But even still, being north African descent, or somewhere else in the middle east (Iraqi or Iranian etc) doesn't mean you are a native of that land and have a claim to it above those living there all along.

And are you guys differentiating in your wild claims about them having a right because of the Roman empire?

Above you seem to be admitting a European Jewish person is less native, or has leas of a claim than a North African one Middle Eastern one?? I haven't heard that stated here before.

Im not "admitting" anything. Just trying to counter the narrative that israeli jews are all european and american. Even the European or American jews still have substantial middle eastern ancestry BTW. Where are iraqi or Iranian jews supposed to go when they have been expelled from those countries? Its pretty much the entire reason that israel exists.